Selorin

[Diamond]

In another thread, LDoza asked, "How does Selorin deal with opinion?"

I think he hears whether or not people believe what they are saying.

He doesn't seem to be psychic, gleaning more information about the situations people are lying about. He doesn't know what the truth is instead of the lie. All he knows is that the person knows that the statement is or isn't true.

So that would mean opinions would easily be handled the same way. If you thought last night's opera was great, he only hears that you believe that you liked it. He doesn't instinctively know that the opera was crap and you have bad taste. He doesn't perceive that "truth." He would hear it as a lie if you thought it was crap and then said that you loved it. You don't believe it, so it's a lie.

He hears when you are lying based on what you know to be true, like a very accurate lie detector. The police could use a lie detector to prove that you didn't break into someone's house, but it can't tell them who did. It could tell them who liked or disliked a movie, but it couldn't concretely prove that the movie is good or bad.

Selorin is awesome, and I don't think opinions slow him down at all.

 - Diamond

[LDoza]

Selorin is awesome, and I don't think opinions slow him down at all.

 - Diamond



....specially when he is after Vade.

[Susanne]

In another thread, LDoza asked, "How does Selorin deal with opinion?"

I think he hears whether or not people believe what they are saying.

He doesn't seem to be psychic, gleaning more information about the situations people are lying about. He doesn't know what the truth is instead of the lie. All he knows is that the person knows that the statement is or isn't true.

So that would mean opinions would easily be handled the same way. If you thought last night's opera was great, he only hears that you believe that you liked it. He doesn't instinctively know that the opera was crap and you have bad taste. He doesn't perceive that "truth." He would hear it as a lie if you thought it was crap and then said that you loved it. You don't believe it, so it's a lie.

He hears when you are lying based on what you know to be true, like a very accurate lie detector. The police could use a lie detector to prove that you didn't break into someone's house, but it can't tell them who did. It could tell them who liked or disliked a movie, but it couldn't concretely prove that the movie is good or bad.

Selorin is awesome, and I don't think opinions slow him down at all.

 - Diamond

So you don't think the theory  that maybe Hitari wasn't just agreeing with something that A said maybe a comment on some sort of fashion statement and he told a lie so not to hurt his feeling or up set him?  Maybe that was what Selorin was picking up? After all there is no trust there toward Hitari from the brothers so the first thing they are going to think is Hitari is up to no good when it could be a simple misunderstanding.

But then again he could be up to no good.....   There are a few weird things going on 

[Susanne]

....specially when he is after Vade.

 

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

maybe Hitari wasn't just agreeing with something that A said maybe a comment on some sort of fashion statement and he told a lie so not to hurt his feeling or up set him?

I think that's a completely valid theory, actually.

-Matthew

[LilacMajesty]

I don't know why, but when I was reading Diamond's post, I started getting twisted lyrics in my head - He knows when you've been lying, he knows that you're a fake, he knows that you don't tell the truth - so its off to jail you go.  Yeah, I know - I ain't right.

[Rhia]

Huh. I wonder if people's ability to lie to themselves would mess with his radar, then? I mean, say I am absolutely convinced that so-and-so committed a crime, even though so-and-so did no such thing. It wouldn't register as a lie, would it?

Then again, he would probably just ask so-and-so, and it would become a moot point.

Can he watch theater? I mean, that's basically people lying, albeit artistically and professionally. When an actor claims to be a poor orphaned pig farmer, when his parents are really perfectly alive and he's never seen a pig in his life, does it make Selorin's head hurt?

[lelehtidazzio]

So you don't think the theory  that maybe Hitari wasn't just agreeing with something that A said maybe a comment on some sort of fashion statement and he told a lie so not to hurt his feeling or up set him?  Maybe that was what Selorin was picking up? After all there is no trust there toward Hitari from the brothers so the first thing they are going to think is Hitari is up to no good when it could be a simple misunderstanding.

Well, that's exactly what I thought when Selorin was speaking with Orinakin about Hitari.  I think that Selorin doesn't fully trust Hitari because of the things that he did to Talin in the past.  I feel that maybe it's more of Selorin not giving Hitari a chance.  I think that Selorin will not approve of Hitari no matter what he says or does. 

I feel that Hitari has changed and that he and Talin have come a long way.  Does anyone think that Selorin is going to mention this to Talin?  Do you think that he should?

[Falconer]

Well, that's exactly what I thought when Selorin was speaking with Orinakin about Hitari.  I think that Selorin doesn't fully trust Hitari because of the things that he did to Talin in the past.  I feel that maybe it's more of Selorin not giving Hitari a chance.  I think that Selorin will not approve of Hitari no matter what he says or does. 

I feel that Hitari has changed and that he and Talin have come a long way.  Does anyone think that Selorin is going to mention this to Talin?  Do you think that he should?

I agree that the problem with Hitari is mainly a problem of trust. Like Anosanim said, will he have to keep proving himself every single day? I really hope that Talin's family gives Hitari a chance like Anosanim and Talin did.

I don't think Selorin should mention this to Talin. After all, it wasn't anything important, just fashion. He might be tempted to do it when he learns of the marriage proposal though... This raises another question: How would Talin react if he were to hear of this?

[lelehtidazzio]

I agree that the problem with Hitari is mainly a problem of trust. Like Anosanim said, will he have to keep proving himself every single day? I really hope that Talin's family gives Hitari a chance like Anosanim and Talin did.

I don't think Selorin should mention this to Talin. After all, it wasn't anything important, just fashion. He might be tempted to do it when he learns of the marriage proposal though... This raises another question: How would Talin react if he were to hear of this?

I honestly hope that he does not mention this to Talin and I agree: how long does the man have to keep proving himself? I feel that as long as he has made amends to Talin, that's all that matters.  He'll be marrying Talin, not the family.   I know that the brothers are close, but this is really Talin's decision to make and if he trusts Hitari then, there is nothing anyone else in the family can say about it.   As harsh as that may sound, it's the way it is.  If the brothers resist Talin on this, voicing their concerns or their opinions about Hitari, they run the risk of alienating Talin a little.  Even as close as they are, there is the possibility that may happen.  Selorin should definitely keep what he told Orinakin to himself.

[Magical_Jen]

So you don't think the theory  that maybe Hitari wasn't just agreeing with something that A said maybe a comment on some sort of fashion statement and he told a lie so not to hurt his feeling or up set him? 

Did you mean that Hitari didn't want to hurt Anosanim's feelings or the designer that they are talking about?

Anosanim and Hitari seem to understand each really well so I do not think that Hitari would be worried about hurting Anosanim feelings when it came to talking about fashions. I would think that Anosanim would enjoy having someone challenge his opinions in order to gain a livelier discussion and gain a broader perspective. If Hitari was talking about some other designer then why he would have to mince his words with Anosanim and Talin if they were having a private discussion, I doubt that either twin would repeat what he had to say if he did not want his opinion shared. Moreover, if he was just repeating someone else’s opinion he could have said so and avoided lying.
However, in his defense Selorin only heard the conversation that the Twins and Hitari were having. Hitari could have been saying something sarcastically or maybe his facial expression would have gave away something to show the twins he was kidding, like a wink, but Selorin would have missed that.

That being said I still do not trust Hitari. When Kudorin and Talin were discussing Hitari and Talin getting back together they referred to Hitari as a poison and Kudorin told him to drink his fill which suggest that there is a possibility that Talin wouldn’t be bale to take Hitari anymore. I mean I know the gods protect him but if you drink poison eventually, you are going to need an antidote. Nevertheless, for their sake I will still hold some hope for them.

[Falconer]

^^ You raise a really interesting question. Would Selorin perceive sarcasm as lies? 

[SilverMoon28]

In another thread, LDoza asked, "How does Selorin deal with opinion?"

I think he hears whether or not people believe what they are saying.

He doesn't seem to be psychic, gleaning more information about the situations people are lying about. He doesn't know what the truth is instead of the lie. All he knows is that the person knows that the statement is or isn't true.

So that would mean opinions would easily be handled the same way. If you thought last night's opera was great, he only hears that you believe that you liked it. He doesn't instinctively know that the opera was crap and you have bad taste. He doesn't perceive that "truth." He would hear it as a lie if you thought it was crap and then said that you loved it. You don't believe it, so it's a lie.

He hears when you are lying based on what you know to be true, like a very accurate lie detector. The police could use a lie detector to prove that you didn't break into someone's house, but it can't tell them who did. It could tell them who liked or disliked a movie, but it couldn't concretely prove that the movie is good or bad.

Selorin is awesome, and I don't think opinions slow him down at all.

 - Diamond

I agree (with everything).

Someone's opinion isn't based on truth or lies, it's just what they think.  It's just like when Selorin said that Hitari believes that he truly loves Talin - his actions, as we might learn later on, might show that he doesn't really love him, but if that's what he believes, then Selorin won't detect a lie.

Then again, 'love' isn't an opinion, but, like Diamond said, it's subjective - if he believes it to be true, then it's what Selorin will detect.

With that said, I can't figure out why he's bad at math... I'd think that it would be really simple for him to figure out what's right or wrong in mathematics, considering that he can tell what the true answers are.

 

Vani

[Falconer]

With that said, I can't figure out why he's bad at math... I'd think that it would be really simple for him to figure out what's right or wrong in mathematics, considering that he can tell what the true answers are.

 

Vani[/color]

Is he?  (bad at maths that is)

Also, I don't think he can know what the mathematical "truth" is... the way I understand it, he can perceive the truth, but not know it intrinsically (that would make him quasi-omniscient, no?).

[LilacMajesty]

Orinakin is very impressed with Bade's math skills because of how bad he and Selorin are at math. 

[Falconer]

Orinakin is very impressed with Bade's math skills because of how bad he and Selorin are at math. 

Thanks for the info!

[LilacMajesty]

lol  There's a scene, fairly early on in the series where Bade just rattles off some complicated problem and Orinakin is all     Then Bade tries to lead Orinakin through doing a problem and tells the Royal Diplomat that he can't look at Selorin's paper.  Orinakin's reply is "He never knew the answer either".

[SilverMoon28]

lmao, Liz, I remember that part.

It still makes me wonder why he wouldn't have known, though.  Because when he did a math problem wrong, he must have known that he was doing it wrong... would he have had a headache throughout all of his math lessons?

Cause I know I did.

Furthermore, and I may be way off base here, but how would Selorin manage to take a test?  I know he doesn't automatically know the right answers (unless he's studied) but if he put down the wrong answer somewhere, wouldn't he know it automatically and change it or something?

Vani

[Falconer]

That should not have bothered him, because for him, it's true. He thinks/believes it's true. Same for other people. If some other student gives the wrong answer thinking it's the right one, Selorin would not be ticked by it. Also, if some student gives an answer knowing it's wrong, Selorin would only be able to tell that the student knows it's wrong but gives it as the right answer (is lying), he wouldn't be able to automatically give/know the right answer himself (unless he studied). Does that make any sense at all? Selorin discerns subjective truth (truth as the person knows it) rather than objective/absolute/universal truth (like Kudorin).

That made me wonder about something else: What is considered a lie (that Selorin would detect)? If I know the truth but give an incorrect answer anyway or if I give an answer that I know is not the correct one but I don't know what the right answer is? Both? Are they equally bad? Are some lies more serious/grave than others (as far as Selorin is concerned) or is it black and white? 

[SilverMoon28]

That should not have bothered him, because for him, it's true. He thinks/believes it's true. Same for other people. If some other student gives the wrong answer thinking it's the right one, Selorin would not be ticked by it. Also, if some student gives an answer knowing it's wrong, Selorin would only be able to tell that the student knows it's wrong but gives it as the right answer (is lying), he wouldn't be able to automatically give/know the right answer himself (unless he studied). Does that make any sense at all? Selorin discerns subjective truth (truth as the person knows it) rather than objective/absolute/universal truth (like Kudorin).

That made me wonder about something else: What is considered a lie (that Selorin would detect)? If I know the truth but give an incorrect answer anyway or if I give an answer that I know is not the correct one but I don't know what the right answer is? Both? Are they equally bad? Are some lies more serious/grave than others (as far as Selorin is concerned) or is it black and white? 

I like the way you think!  He would only detect a lie if the person knew that he/she was telling the lie.

I could use Selorin in my daily work... I often think about him when I'm talking to some of my clients who have a tendency to lie to me about whether or not they've made a payment... maybe I should start thinking like him.
Vani

[LilacMajesty]

I could have used Selorin's skills when I worked for Columbia House Music Club.  "I never got no package of CDs!"  "Please rephrase your statement as I can hear one of those CDs playing in the background."

[Falconer]

He would only detect a lie if the person knew that he/she was telling the lie.

Yeah, pretty much. That's the way I see it.

[SilverMoon28]

Selorin is smart

I think I could talk to him for hours about his cases.  I'd write books about them.

*waits for the Blue Book*

Vani

[LilacMajesty]

I'd like to see more court room scenes.  Think that'll happen in the Blue Book?

[LilacMajesty]

I was just imagining Selorin attending a meeting of our Congress.  He'd have to have a weeks recovery time from all of those lies.

[SilverMoon28]

Oh God, poor Selorin.  Bade would have to do equations for three weeks to help him through that!

And yes, I'm sure we'll get more court room scenes in the Blue Book.  It's Selorin's... life.

[LilacMajesty]

I just want to hear him say "Please rephrase your statement".  I don't know why, but I think that's hot.