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Let's Discuss belas!
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Falconer
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« on: February 04, 2009, 08:48:38 PM »

I promise I'll stop posting like a mad-woman in a minute. I just wanted to introduce a more serious discussion. I've been thinking about belas since I started reading ITL, and let's just say that I don't get it.


I understand that it's a highly coveted position. I understand that the belas do it/choose it freely. I get that they really really like and enjoy the sex. However, I can't help but feel a little bit uncomfortable with the whole concept. Because, the way I see it, they're kinda like sex toys (or sexual outlets). Happy, satisfied sex toys, but sex toys nonetheless. When the princes are horny, they go to them (except for Rini who sometimes goes just to hang out with them). If they themselves get horny, well, their only option is to distract each other. They can't interact with anyone else outside their own belam, can't be touched by anyone but the princes, can't express any preference for one specific prince, they can't say "no" (can they? I'm only inferring here since it hasn't been explicitly stated--maybe they can't say no in the sense that nobody would turn down the princes? ). Anyways. It sounds very much like a golden cage to me. Well, they can leave whenever they want, but overall I think the job is a bit debasing.

Although I suppose it's very much a matter of morals/culture? I don't see how it works out though. The main reason I'm bringing this up is because on some occasions, the princes have made some references about how having sex with the belas doesn't constitute cheating. Orinakin doesn't want to share Bade with anyone, and yet belas are fine. Why? Why is it different when it comes to them? Anosanim was talking to Talin (sorry I don't have the specific references) about having a boyfriend, and he said something about having sex with the belas, and Talin said that didn't count. If I remember correctly Xio Voh said something like he didn't mind Kudorin having sex with the belas. So it seems that the princes don't view the belas like they do other persons. Belas don't count. (Because they get paid to do it?) I remember Bade saying to Xio Voh that he was grateful that the belas never made it seem 'like work'. How is that a coveted, enviable position? The belas get the sex out of it, they get the money and luxurious lifestyle out of it, but beyond that? Is that it?

I'd really like to know how everybody else feels about the belas...  Wouldn't one rather be a boyfriend (albeit for 1 month in the case of Selorin) than a bela? Huh? Do you think the constant sex outweighs the other points (about how the princes view them)? How do you think the princes view them?

Edit: Fixed up my sentences. Added more questions.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:44:20 PM by Falconer » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 01:41:43 AM »

Those are really good questions, though I must say that I've never asked them, myself.

Harems have been depicted throughout History and in a fair amount of movies and books, so maybe that's why I never really gave a second thought to the belams.  There's also the fact that the belas have a much better position than anyone else I've ever encountered in fiction or History Smiley.

You have to think that Anorians are a lot more open sexually than any other society, hence why they're so free when it comes to the belas.  The belas do 'count' (if they didn't, I think that Remin would be in the belams as often as the temples), but the Siblings don't form any romantic attachment to any of them.  And if they did, they'd be free to marry one of them, of course.  As far as I've understood, the belas are respected, which isn't the case in um... our society.  You know what I mean.

And, even though it's never been specified, I'm assuming that belas are indeed allowed to say no.  Just because it's their job doesn't mean that they can't refuse every once in a while.  However, I can't imagine the belas not wanting to satisfy one of the princes, but that's just me.

I have a lot more to say on the subject, but people are starting to arrive to the office (ha ha!), so I might have to log off in a bit.  If I'm seen writing about belas, I'll get fired for sure!

Vani
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 02:36:51 PM »

You have to think that Anorians are a lot more open sexually than any other society, hence why they're so free when it comes to the belas.  The belas do 'count' (if they didn't, I think that Remin would be in the belams as often as the temples), but the Siblings don't form any romantic attachment to any of them.  And if they did, they'd be free to marry one of them, of course.  As far as I've understood, the belas are respected, which isn't the case in um... our society.  You know what I mean.

And, even though it's never been specified, I'm assuming that belas are indeed allowed to say no.  Just because it's their job doesn't mean that they can't refuse every once in a while.  However, I can't imagine the belas not wanting to satisfy one of the princes, but that's just me.


Thanks for your reply! It made me think a lot. I concede your point about Remin, it's a good one. I've been turning it around in my head, and it does invalidate my argument about how sex with the belas 'isn't really sex'.  Geek I think I need to think about this a bit more...

I was hoping for more opinions though, like How people feel about the belas? Do you think the system works? Do you think the bela-as-a-job works? Like theoreticallySigh
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 03:59:04 PM »


I was hoping for more opinions though, like How people feel about the belas? Do you think the system works? Do you think the bela-as-a-job works? Like theoreticallySigh

I think that the system works in Orina Anoris, yes.  They get well-paid, they're respected members of the community, they're not slaves (well sex slaves, but frankly, I think that's to be envied in this case), and more to the point, they don't have to worry about diseases.  I mean, it's a good job and they don't have to worry about just anyone coming over and screwing them.  Even in the guest belams, it's only dignified palace guests who get to go to them.

However, such a system wouldn't really work in a  country like Nosupolis.  One has to be open-minded about sex in order to have such a luxury.

I don't even know if I'm making any sense to you, lol.

Vani
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 05:56:07 PM »

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I was hoping for more opinions though, like How people feel about the belas? Do you think the system works? Do you think the bela-as-a-job works?

I have a lot to say on the subject, but I'm trying to stay out of it, because I'd like to hear from some more readers.

-Matthew
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JaeFire
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2009, 09:05:06 PM »

I understand that it's a highly coveted position. I understand that the belas do it/choose it freely. I get that they really really like and enjoy the sex. However, I can't help but feel a little bit uncomfortable with the whole concept. Because, the way I see it, they're kinda like sex toys (or sexual outlets). Happy, satisfied sex toys, but sex toys nonetheless. When the princes are horny, they go to them (except for Rini who sometimes goes just to hang out with them).

I can understand where you're coming from, but remember that the premise is that in Orina Anoris, sex isn't something shameful, something dirty.  In their culture, paying for sex is the same thing as paying a clerk or lawyer to go over a contract for you--if you were Anorian, would you be ashamed of your lawyer?  To them, there's nothing shameful about sex or paying for sex, so they wouldn't be embarrassed.  So, yes, I see where you're coming from when you mean "sex toys nonetheless," but I think you're coming at it from the angle of the societies of our world and that's what might be making you uncomfortable.

Now, looking at history and the development of cultures and civilizations throughout the world, a major theory is that the reason sex was shown as dirty was to discourage women having it--why?  So that women, who were, sadly, treated as currency in a way (father "gives away" the bride and gets a dowry, etc., etc.) could be considered valuable (i.e. to sire heirs, etc.).  If a man couldn't make sure that his daughter was pure (i.e., that his son-in-law was guaranteed that all his children were legitimately his, through social pressure not to have had sex before marriage, which would hopefully carry on into the realm of not having extra-marital affairs), then he couldn't use her as currency.  She was not valuable if she was not pure, and so sex outside of marriage was painted as something only disreputable women did, women who were not socially acceptable.  (Remember, women were sometimes killed if they were found to be committing adultery a few thousand years ago and probably recently, actually...)  To make sure that their "currency" remained valuable and useful, sex became shown as not something that respectable women (young and old) (or men), talked about in public, which added to the sense of shame, to the idea that it was bad so it must be hidden.

Now, I realize that a lot of the belas are male, but the point of my previous paragraph is that we're all born into cultures that have certain mores, and we internalize those mores.  If everyone grows up believing that talking about sex is shameful, and that therefore sex itself is shameful, so therefore people who show themselves to be sexually active are also shameful, then the conclusion that being a bela is a shameful job is natural.  However, Orina Anoris is the opposite of that, so the conclusion would also be the opposite: that there's nothing embarrassing about being a bela.

If they themselves get horny, well, their only option is to distract each other. They can't interact with anyone else outside their own belam, can't be touched by anyone but the princes, can't express any preference for one specific prince, they can't say "no" (can they? I'm only inferring here since it hasn't been explicitly stated--maybe they can't say no in the sense that nobody would turn down the princes? ). Anyways. It sounds very much like a golden cage to me. Well, they can leave whenever they want, but overall I think the job is a bit debasing.

But let's look at why you see the job as debasing in the context of Anorian society.  Just like any job, there are certain rules to be followed--i.e., if you have the honor of serving the princes, you shouldn't also be having sex in closets with any guy who saunters into the palace.  You might recall that one of the belas (I can't remember who), was actually selected to be in the belam of the Seven Siblings, but when he was asked to, he said he preferred more variety; obviously his preferences were taken into account and he got a job in the guest belam instead, which makes him happier.  They can also say no in that if they don't feel like it, they stay in their room.  I can't cite where right now, because I haven't slept in 24 hours, but either Orinakin or Selorin said that the belas are not required to be available to them at all times.  The princes must respect their privacy.  They're trained in the art of self-defense so that if they're attacked, they're not helpless, just because their position is a little dangerous because they're so enticing.  They're usually accompanied by a guard everywhere they go, because their safety is a priority.  For them, it's a job, like any other job, and since their culture has never looked down on sex (probably due to a very close relationship with Ilanosa), then there's no shame in the fact that their job involves sex.

Although I suppose it's very much a matter of morals/culture? I don't see how it works out though. The main reason I'm bringing this up is because on some occasions, the princes have made some references about how having sex with the belas doesn't constitute cheating. Orinakin doesn't want to share Bade with anyone, and yet belas are fine. Why? Why is it different when it comes to them? Anosanim was talking to Talin (sorry I don't have the specific references) about having a boyfriend, and he said something about having sex with the belas, and Talin said that didn't count. If I remember correctly Xio Voh said something like he didn't mind Kudorin having sex with the belas. So it seems that the princes don't view the belas like they do other persons. Belas don't count. (Because they get paid to do it?) I remember Bade saying to Xio Voh that he was grateful that the belas never made it seem 'like work'. How is that a coveted, enviable position? The belas get the sex out of it, they get the money and luxurious lifestyle out of it, but beyond that? Is that it?

Again, I really understand where you're coming from, and it took me a couple of chapters (like Bade) to get used to the idea.  I think that yes, if Orina Anoris looked down on sex the way a lot of cultures in the real world do, then the belas would be ashamed--but Orina Anoris doesn't, so they don't.  For them, being great at sex is like being great at painting, or at designing clothes, or managing an estate, or making amazing pastries in the kitchen as a palace chef.  Their job is to have sex with the children of their gods.  Literally, the children of their gods.  It's a pretty high honor.  Though I can't say that for the people who go to training and don't get into the coveted position of being belas, since I don't know where they go.  But I do recall the short story "Slowly," where Tomi had to track down a prostitute as a witness and no one batted an eye at it.  Maybe she went to bela training school and wanted to "freelance" instead?  Either way, no one ever acted as if she should be ashamed of her job.

(edited to add): I forgot to address the whole "belas don't count" thing--they don't "count" only in that they don't pose an emotional threat to, for instance, a prince's spouse.  (Not because they're not people--because they are.)  Since it's their job, to get emotionally involved and manipulative and possessive over one of the brothers (esp. if they're married) is unprofessional, so it's a given that they aren't supposed to do it (and assumed that they won't).  So Bade has no fear of the belas, because he knows that they view having sex with Orinakin as a job (an enjoyable job, but still a job), so he doesn't have to live in fear that one of them will take Orinakin from him, will manipulate and play games with his affection and wrest Orinakin away from him emotionally and physically.  They respect his place as Orinakin's spouse.  The same would go for any other brother, and Kudorin, I think.  (Which is why Xio Voe got so jealous of Anosukinom kissing Li, because to him, Li was posing a threat to what was his, emotionally AND physically, and since Xio Voe hadn't even gotten a kiss from Anosukinom, he got a tad upset.)

Wouldn't one rather be a boyfriend (albeit for 1 month in the case of Selorin) than a bela? Huh? Do you think the constant sex outweighs the other points (about how the princes view them)? How do you think the princes view them?

Having the preference of being a bela or a boyfriend comes down, for these characters, as a very personal choice.  I think you might be subconsciously transferring some of the strict views of the real world to the princes, and assume that they believe that sex is dirty, so belas are therefore dirty, and aren't worth anything because sex is their job.  But the princes don't.  As Orinakin said to Bade long ago when they first danced together at the Festival of Adanotu, belas are people, too.  The princes dance with them freely, in public, without shame, and ask them to dance in front of their people at a festival, without shame.  The reason they can't touch other people is to protect the sanctity of their bodies, to honor the contract they made with the princes when they accepted the job as a bela.

As Kudorin said in Ch.17:

            “Belas are people,” Kudorin said.  “I do not own Koto or any of the others.”
            [...]
            “They have, for a price, voluntarily surrendered themselves to my care,” Kudorin explained, rubbing Koto’s leg.  “I take the responsibility seriously, and see that they are well provided for.  I give them the physical and spiritual comforts that I can, and as much freedom as I am able.  I wish that they could wander freely outside the palace grounds, but certain precautions must still be made.”


I hope that helps in explaining my personal views on belas, and why I see them the way I do.  If I came across as rude, I apologize in advance, I'm simply very tired.  Actually, after writing this huge thing, I was kind of hesitant to post it, because I'm so tired I don't know if I'm coming off as a jackass (because I don't mean to), and because I really do understand where your discomfort is coming from, and wanted to explain in a way that might be helpful.

- Jae
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2009, 10:28:02 PM »

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Jae has said. I happen to like the belas and find that they provide companionship to all the princes.  I don't know if you noticed that the princes go to the belas for comfort and to act as a sounding board as well as sexual relief.   I also have to point out that the guest belam helped Bade out to become accustomed to Orina Anoris.
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 12:11:04 AM »

I'm all for belas! Love

When it was mentioned that they can't say no, I thought about this part just before the bride's lament in ITL 63.5:
Quote
It was dreadfully difficult to pare the belas down to a manageable number.  A couple of them declined to attend, since their families were in town for the wedding and were having private reunions the night before.  A few of them expressed preferences on whether they wanted to circulate generally through the party, or be involved in the exhibition, and naturally that would be taken into account.

I think it's taken into account that every bela isn't always oiled and ready for you at every moment of the day. I think that's one of the reasons there are so many of them. Even if half the belas in a belam aren't interested at the moment, you still have 7 or 8 guys who are all over you.

One particular bela could could have sex a few times a month and I don't think anyone would mind.

I don't know, the belas seem very happy. It's considered a great job to the extent that Depano's friends  encouraged him to become a bela, the same way friends might encourage someone to be an actor because of their talent. [Part 44]

I would have reservations about a belam here in our real world. I'd have all the same concerns Falconer has, but in Orina Anoris it's different. They're different. That's the beauty of fantasy, you can take it at face value without all our real life baggage on top of it.

-Diamond
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 01:10:20 AM »

Firstly, many thanks to all of you for the feedback and the insight!  That's exactly what I was looking for! Most of the issues I had brought up are now resolved and I feel I have a much better perspective on the belas now than I did before. I'll definitely be paying more attention to some of the things, dialogues and passages mentioned here in my rereads.


To recapitulate, my issue with the belas was two-fold. One I didn't see how it made sense in the context of the story, but this point has been resolved.  Smiley

The second one was/is more personal, but I just remembered that this particular aspect was also addressed (albeit briefly) in the story (when Vade mentioned that one side of Jekari's family didn't approve of his position as a bela). I'm really hoping that we find out more about that in the future because one of the more interesting characteristics of ITL is the clash/interaction between the different cultures: Nosupolin/Anorian, Jacacean/Anorian, etc. and the shifting perspectives on things, and how most everything gets questioned, even by the princes. So yeah, I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks again everybody! Now to bed... 
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 01:23:03 AM »

I would have reservations about a belam here in our real world. I'd have all the same concerns Falconer has, but in Orina Anoris it's different. They're different. That's the beauty of fantasy, you can take it at face value without all our real life baggage on top of it.

-Diamond

Precisely!  There is a lot of baggage in the real world, and historically concubines and harems just weren't a good deal for the people in them.  General abuse of power, in-fighting and jealousy and back-stabbing politics, sexual abuse, psychological abuse--I remember watching the History Channel 2 years ago (so my memory's not perfect, forgive me) about how, in the Ottoman Empire, every son of the Sultan was by a different concubine, and once she had a son, the Sultan stopped having sex with her because “every prince deserved his own mother.”  However, for a long, long time (into the early 20th century, even), the way they chose the next-in-line wasn't birthright, but by fratricide.  The strongest won the throne.  The reason they stopped, if I remember correctly, was that one year, one prince was so thorough and so brutal, that he killed even his littlest half-brothers.  The country just couldn't take seeing, I think it was...19? coffins one by one, with the last ones being so, so tiny.  They put a stop to the practice because of that.  It was too heartbreaking.

(Also, I’m not entirely sure, but I suspect that that funeral procession might have been filmed and so the whole country might have had to face what had been happening for so long, because film and television was just becoming a medium then.  Reason: I remember seeing a very old, grainy, black-and-white clip while I was watching the History Channel of this, but my memory could be wrong.)

So, yeah, I think you're definitely right.  I'd have some major reservations, too, about having them in the real world...again.  (Though I'm sure there's some obscure, little-known country that's still doing this that I don't know about, or that someone else will point out after my post, or is hidden from the world...)

That's the beauty of fantasy, you can take it at face value without all our real life baggage on top of it.

I completely agree.  That's one of the reasons I brought up the whole women being used as "currency" as civilization developed, to point out that Orina Anoris doesn't have that, which is wonderful.  Sometimes fantasy is an escape, the musings on what a better, or at least different, world could be somewhere else.

- Jae
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 11:17:25 AM »

I have no problems with the Belams.  I see them more as trusted people.  Not only do the Princes used them for sex, but also companionship.  When Orinikan is upset w/himself for not wanting to share Bade, he talks about it with a bela.  He gets a well thought, un-biased opinion.  Rini brings them treats, Anosanim gives decorating advice and Bade gets advice from Depano on what Orinikan likes. 

The members of the Guest Bela might not be as highly regarding as the Princes belas, but they are still not treated badly.  All of them went to see Vade off at the balloon, Lutelo went to Satunin with Vade, 3 were invited into the Wedding Orgy for Vade.  They seem to love their job.  I imagine most young men would like a job that highlights how attractive they are  Laughing

Also, the belas must be intelligent.  When they are at the training school they have classes in various subjects.  I remember one being something like Motivation? maybe?  I can't remember the chapter, but some belas were talking with someone and mentions a class they had.  Will try to find the reference tonight.

Just my opinions of course! Cool
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2009, 01:13:26 PM »

That's the beauty of fantasy, you can take it at face value without all our real life baggage on top of it.

I completely agree.  That's one of the reasons I brought up the whole women being used as "currency" as civilization developed, to point out that Orina Anoris doesn't have that, which is wonderful.  Sometimes fantasy is an escape, the musings on what a better, or at least different, world could be somewhere else.

OMG, have you read Tolkien's essay "On Fairy-Stories"? It's precisely about that. About how the main 'purpose' (for lack of a better word) of Fantasy is Escape, Consolation and Recovery (he gives an amazing definition of these words, but I won't go into that). He talks about how Fantasy creates a 'Secondary World', different from ours (the Primary World), with its own laws, its own truth, its own reality. Yesterday, as I was typing up my answer, I actually went and looked for that essay and reread parts of it. I wanted to quote it (because I realized that the main reason I didn't "get" the belas was because I questioned the premises of the story, of ITL, and with Fantasy, you're not supposed to do that, you're supposed to enter the world of the story --the Secondary World-- (ie, accept it as a reality for the duration of the reading) and the logic, the truth is based solely on whether or not the events taking place in the story agree with the laws of that Secondary World--which, in the case of the belas, it did). So yeah, I agree with both Diamond and you. ITL is a Fantasy, and should not be judged on the basis of our own values or projected onto our own reality (even though I do think that doing that can be relevant and interesting and fun and can make for great/amazing discussions, which is part of what I wanted to do, but it can be tricky).


Just my opinions of course! Cool

You've made really interesting arguments! This message board is really cool because different people remember different things, and when you put these ideas together, what comes out is pure awesomeness. I read things and I'm like  Doh! Why didn't I think of that? So thank you!
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 11:49:29 PM »

 Thinking I've been thinking about it more and I think on some level being a bela could be equated to being a masseuse.

In some cultures it is forbidden for unmarried men and women to touch in certain ways, if at all, or even for a man to see a woman's skin above the wrists or below a modest neckline. Some cultures require women to cover themselves from head to toe in public.

So to them an American spa would be a house of ill repute. Men give women massages while the women only have a towel covering certain areas and the men touch the women all over, front and back. And women do the same to men. They would consider the entire situation incredibly intimate and dirty between unmarried people. They would look down on all those who participated in male/female massages.

But in our culture, being able to afford professional massages on a regular basis is a privilege. There are many who search for a good masseuse and are very loyal when they find one. Many people prefer to have a masseur of the opposite sex rather than the same sex. Society as a whole doesn't frown on any m/f, m/m, or f/f combination giving or receiving a massage.

In Orina Anoris, a prostitute doesn't seem to be any more immoral than a masseuse. I think it's about perspective.


Quote
You've made really interesting arguments! This message board is really cool because different people remember different things, and when you put these ideas together, what comes out is pure awesomeness. I read things and I'm like  Doh! Why didn't I think of that? So thank you!

I love that too.   Love

- Diamond
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2009, 03:59:38 AM »

Thinking I've been thinking about it more and I think on some level being a bela could be equated to being a masseuse.

But in our culture, being able to afford professional massages on a regular basis is a privilege. There are many who search for a good masseuse and are very loyal when they find one. Many people prefer to have a masseur of the opposite sex rather than the same sex. Society as a whole doesn't frown on any m/f, m/m, or f/f combination giving or receiving a massage.

In Orina Anoris, a prostitute doesn't seem to be any more immoral than a masseuse. I think it's about perspective.

- Diamond

Total.  Genius. 

That's it exactly.

- Jae
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2009, 10:18:40 PM »

Speaking of Belas...

I really want to read about Xio Voe and/or Kudorin having sex with Li. It would be really hot. Plus I've been intrigued by Li since his introduction and really want to read more about him.
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 04:52:33 AM »

I still drool over Li.  Drool
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