ITL 139

[anaskee]

Talin.  Hitari.  Oh. My. God.



Wait....I need a minute.

[TaraAngelX]

Poor Talin!

Is it bad that a desperately want to break the fourth wall and tell him it's going to be alright? That he gets his own book and a greater love and it will all work out? Because I desperately want to.

I can't believed he repeatedly through Anosanim against a wall!

There is just so much emotion. I knew, but I hated knowing -- and now that it's done I wish I had been wrong. 

Well, back to bed. 

[mc_cart_ny]

 

I'm so sad for Talin.

 

~McCartny~

[lelehtidazzio]

Hitari let the sins of his father fall upon him...and he hurt and betrayed someone he loved and someone who loved him.  This situation is beyond sad.

[LilacMajesty]

I am so devestated right now. I'm actually crying.  I am so disappointed in Hitari and I feel so bad for Talin.  Plus I feel like I should apologize to Jae.  This couple meant so much to me, and now that hope is just shattered,.

[Dena]

Oh man, that was heartbreaking.  I think what got me was how little remorse Hitari had.  He was upset for being caught.  He was genuinely sorry about involving Talin - but there he didn't feel sorry for doing it at all.  He resented being forced to pay off his family's debts and had he not gotten caught, he felt his own crime was entitled and justified because of his situation.  He had to pay for his sister and family, it's true, but he also told them he was "tired of looking like a pauper", or something similar - a great deal of it was pride and resentment, and he'd been a liar so long and in so many ways that he didn't see how, even if he hadn't involved the Royal House of Art and been caught, it was a betrayal of Talin.  His innate sense of right and wrong is skewed by his early life.  He loves Talin.  He was trying with Talin.  But beneath it all Hitari is just not the same kind of man Talin is, and he's not healthy enough for Talin.  Being arrested, all of that - maybe really finding his own consequences will help him realize how warped his father did make him, and he can really start to heal and become the sort of man I think he wants to be, deep down, but just couldn't be in time. 

I found the outcome very satisfying from a storytelling point of view, but man is it sad.  I feel so badly for poor Talin.  And his encounter with Anosanim was awful, too. 

I think this means the Red book is not next.  Talin will need some time for his heart to heal.  And if Xio Voe is going to be part of him getting together with whoever he ends with, then Xio Voe will need time to settle in too.  My money's on the Gold book or the Blue book next. 

Poor Talin.  *cuddles him*

[anaskee]

I was wondering how could this be the Rainbow Book when it looked like the Red Book sometimes.  Well, this chapter answered it then.     The other shoe did drop, big time.

I really had to step away from this chapter for a while because I was upset.  Well I am still upset, depressed, and heartbroken.  I want to see their relationship from the beginning, just to understand how it could end this way.  Here's what resonates with me the most:

“No,” Talin snapped, “it wasn’t.  There isn’t enough.  There isn’t enough love in the whole fucking world to fix what’s wrong.  I couldn’t have loved him enough, and he couldn’t have loved me enough, and we were stupid for trying.”

Am I crazy to actually agree with Talin?  Am I stupid to actually not like Anosukinom right now?

“I should’ve been smarter,” Talin said, crossing his arms over his chest, refusing to give in to Kudorin’s empathy.  “I should’ve been stronger.” - Chapter 13

“You will find your happiness,” Kudorin said.  “But not with Etaki.  And not until you strip yourself of the damage that Hitari has inflicted.”

            The words came without permission.  “He’s a poison,” Talin said.  “A poison that I desperately want to drink.”

            “Then drink him,” Kudorin said, looking into his eyes.  “Drink your fill.  When it is time, when you have taken too much, you will find that you cannot tolerate another drop.  And then you shall be rid of him, forever. - Chapter 13

Was Talin smarter this time? Yes.  Was he stronger? Yes.  And yet it wasn't enough.  This time, yet again, Talin drank the poison and like the first time, he broke it off with Hitari when he found out how deceitful Hitari is.  Only this time, the heartbreak is a thousand times more painful.  Yes, Talin cannot deny anymore who Hitari really is--his poison, but he loves Hitari nonetheless.

Even though he’d been in a relationship with Hitari before, even though Hitari had betrayed him before, and he’d had to find a way to sever himself from Hitari and move on before, none of this really felt all that familiar.  Everything had been different this time.  They’d been so close, so happy together.  They’d been ready to move forward to together, to get married, to make a lifetime commitment.  This had been a good relationship.  A happy one.  A healthy one.

            And the betrayal went much farther this time.  It wasn’t about sex or money or cheating.  It was about Talin’s role within the dynasty.  About the Royal House of Art.  About things that were so big and went so far beyond their relationship, Talin had more to worry about than his own hurt feelings.  He had to repair the artistic community within the nation, and repair his reputation abroad.

How is this supposed to be better for him?  How is Talin supposed to rise above this? When Talin can't separate the poison from the love?

He could never forgive Hitari for that.

He could never forgive himself for that.

I'm probably gonna mope around for a couple of days.  Like Liz, my hope has been shattered. 

[anaskee]

His innate sense of right and wrong is skewed by his early life.  He loves Talin.  He was trying with Talin.  But beneath it all Hitari is just not the same kind of man Talin is, and he's not healthy enough for Talin.  Being arrested, all of that - maybe really finding his own consequences will help him realize how warped his father did make him, and he can really start to heal and become the sort of man I think he wants to be, deep down, but just couldn't be in time. 

Dena, I'm sure this is what will make Talin move on.  To realize that Hitari is not ready to change.  It just makes me sad.  If Hitari does go to jail for the rest of his life, I feel like he's being abandoned.  Everyone is trying so hard to develop Xio Voe's stunted emotions.  Can't we do something for Hitari? I know that he's committed a crime and doesn't show remorse.  I want to shake him so hard for his stupidity.  He's got Talin, for christ sake!  The doors of opportunity will always be open for him to rise above poverty.  And now, he's lost everything: his freedom and Talin.  So, he'll spend his time in jail, probably find true peace and contentment before he dies?  That is just so sad.  And Talin.  Oh my God, Talin.

[JaeFire]

I am so devestated right now. I'm actually crying.  I am so disappointed in Hitari and I feel so bad for Talin.  Plus I feel like I should apologize to Jae.  This couple meant so much to me, and now that hope is just shattered,.

No one ever needs to apologize for debating with me, least of all you.  I didn't want this to happen either.  I knew it was happening at the end of Ch.138, because I already felt heartbroken about it.  The last scene of 138, to me, was Talin's heart actually shattering, was Talin in shock.  That's why I was arguing so hard that it wasn't Ritek, because that scene felt like Talin's world falling apart.

I feel so sad.  I actually felt for Hitari, wanted Talin and Hitari to work out for Hitari's sake, and it's all come to this, a ruin.  

And poor Talin.  Everything's just collapsed around him.  He really had to go through this with Hitari, needed to finish the cycle he'd started before he could move on to better emotions (with or without Hitari), but it's going to be so painful to get past this.  He's so angry; there's no telling how long it's going to take for him to believe in love again.  

But you know, I do believe he needed to get back together with Hitari, and I think Kudorin was right.  

Talin needed to experience a good relationship with Hitari to heal.  If he hadn't, his life would have been an endless procession of Hitari-substitutes like Etaki, and the cycle never would have broken.  His life would have stagnated, and he never would have been able to move on emotionally.  At least with this, he has closure, and the knowledge that Hitari ruined things between them not because of any aims toward Talin, any desire to hurt Talin, but because of his own financial and moral issues. This time, Hitari's betrayal had more to do with himself and his father's effects on his life--it wasn't because he wanted to hurt Talin, or because it was the only way he knew how to love Talin.  Hitari learned to love because of Talin.  Hitari learned what love really was.

What ruined everything were Hitari's bad choices after they reunited.  Those choices don't erase the fact that Talin and Hitari both healed during the relationship--Hitari stopped cheating and learned how to express love for someone, they had a healthier love, and Talin stopped being tormented about Hitari being emotionally and physically unfaithful.   So many of Talin's hurts--his doubts, his questions, his pain at Hitari's past betrayals--were healed because of his time with Hitari.  This time, Hitari was aiming to fix his financial situation and betrayed Talin in the process; hurting Talin wasn't his main aim this time, and as hollow as that sounds right now, that's much better than the old days when Hitari was hurting Talin all the time because that was the only twisted way Hitari knew how to love him, how to hold on to him.

At least now Talin has finished his cycle with Hitari.  He has a sense of closure this time, of an end, which he didn't have the first time they broke up.  As he said, "He would do what had to be done, and then he would leave, and this part, this entire chapter, would be over."  This is much better than what happened before, when Talin couldn't let go, when Hitari still ate at him, when he stayed in a twisted, destructive relationship with Hitari "until the bad far outweighed the good."  

Talin's grown stronger, and he'll be able to get past this.  How long that will take, however, is anybody's guess.

- Jae

[Dena]

Am I crazy to actually agree with Talin?  Am I stupid to actually not like Anosukinom right now?

It's not crazy! 

I think Kudorin said what he did because he CAN see all paths.  Talin was stuck in a pattern, closed off and mirroring his relationships after Hitari, dooming himself to failure because he couldn't get past Hitari.  Kudorin told him to go back to Hitari because the pattern he was stuck in was more of a guarantee of unhappiness than the possibility of where the path with Hitari would lead. 

Kudorin of course knew that this was a possibility.  But nothing is set in stone, and there was probably also a possibility that Hitari COULD heal and move on and be happy.  But the other way - the one that played out - it meant heartache and misery.  But it also meant that Talin had broken out of that pattern of distrust and closing off.  He'd let himself be in love and trust.  It backfired - but he still did it.  He took everything Hitari could offer, and now he's done, and can know that he did everything he could.  He won't be left wondering what might have been, and eventually his heart will heal and he'll move on. 

If Hitari does go to jail for the rest of his life, I feel like he's being abandoned.  Everyone is trying so hard to develop Xio Voe's stunted emotions.  Can't we do something for Hitari?

This was Hitari's second chance - they did try.  He had his shot to overcome, and there was that possible path.  He didn't take it, so the outcome is his own doing.  But Talin will be healthier in the long run, either way, I think.  And Hitari - who knows.  Maybe he'll find a way to make restitution, peace with himself, and feel remorse and be happy with someone else, in a simpler and more honest life later on.  And maybe his case will lead Selorin and the rest of the judges to find a better solution to family debt problems, and Hitari can help them with it, even if it's from behind bars.  Hitari's chief purpose has been as a model - his looks for the most part, even if he was always more than that to Talin.  Maybe he can find a way to do something that means something to him and helps him develop more of a sense of who he is.  This wasn't the ideal solution or outcome for anyone - but good can come out of it, even for Hitari, in the long run, even if he'll probably have a hard time seeing that, just as Talin is.  Not that we can blame him! 

Talin needed to experience a good relationship with Hitari to heal.  If he hadn't, his life would have been an endless procession of Hitari-substitutes like Etaki, and the process never would have broken.

I should have read Jae's response first, since that's pretty much what I was trying to say, only much more coherent.  lol

[JaeFire]

This was Hitari's second chance - they did try.  He had his shot to overcome, and there was that possible path.  He didn't take it, so the outcome is his own doing. 

You nailed it right on the head.  That's it exactly.

That's why I'm not angry at Kudorin--because he was the one who gave Talin and Hitari their second chance at happiness, gave Hitari that second chance, gave Talin to Hitari.  And like you said, what happened was Hitari's own doing, the outcome a product of his own choices.  He had a chance to marry and love a child of the gods for the rest of his life, and he messed it up. 

Kudorin didn't make either of their decisions, and what ruined everything wasn't that they got back together--after all, they were happy, finally--but Hitari's decisions afterward.  As he said, "We wanted the best for Hitari.  We tried to give it to him.  We gave him our most precious gift, even when he’d already rejected it.” 

Blaming Kudorin is misguided, I think.   It's like you giving your two favorite nieces or nephews a laptop for a graduation gift.  They then put files and music and photos and important information in it, but eventually make the careless choice not to renew the anti-virus software in it after it expires--despite you buying anti-virus software for them in the beginning, despite all of your encouragement and warnings.  They simply choose not to, they open up suspicious e-mail, they ignore the symptoms and signs.  And finally, when everything's been corrupted by a trojan horse/worm/virus and all their beloved files are gone... they blame you.  For giving them the laptop in the first place, for setting up the situation by giving them something they otherwise wouldn't have been able to buy themselves. 

It doesn't make sense.  They messed your gift up, and chose to treat your gift a certain way despite your best efforts; it's their fault. 

Kudorin and the other gods did their best to soothe Hitari, to help him make the right choices.  As Kudorin said,  “I can’t tell you how many times I soothed his heart, and calmed his spirit, and encouraged him to do the right thing.  I can’t tell you how consistently Alanohi was with him, loving him, blessing him."  When Kudorin told Talin that “At the time, returning to Hitari was the best path before you,” one of those paths included a full engagement and marriage and happiness and love.  That was one of the paths opened up because of their reunion.  That was something they could have had. 

But Hitari's choices, and Talin's decisions to deny them to himself and not bring them up before the House of Art had gotten involved in the crime... obliterated that path.  What's heartbreaking was that it was within their reach.  They could have been happy.


- Jae

[Susanne]

I am so devestated right now. I'm actually crying.  I am so disappointed in Hitari and I feel so bad for Talin.  Plus I feel like I should apologize to Jae.  This couple meant so much to me, and now that hope is just shattered,.

 ......Everything will be ok. 

[Bren]

Others have already expressed (and much more eloquently than I could have) my feelings on this and why I think this will ultimately be good for Talin, no matter how much it hurts now. So I'll discuss a couple of other things.

One of the things I especially liked was seeing the way Kudorin and Xio Voe worked together and how their styles compliment each other. When they are married and ruling together, they will be faced with many difficult situations, and it was good to see how already at this stage they each bring different things to the table. Kudorin is loving and consoling and understanding and Xio Voe is.. well, he said some things that were very harsh, but no-one can claim that they were not true and spot-on. And Talin saw them as such.

By the way, it was also interesting to see how thoroughly Talin (and the others, I guess) have accepted that Xio Voe will be their King. Even when Talin was at his most furious, and it seemed to him like his whole world had collapsed, he allowed Xio Voe to interfere in his discussion with Kudorin. I was half expecting Talin to react with "How exactly is this any of your business, stay out of it" but he didn't.

I loved Anosanim in this chapter. Brilliant, quick thinking with hiding all the art featuring Hitari. Talin would have smashed all of it into smithereens and while it would have been satisfying for about five seconds, he would have regretted it later. It may be a long time before he is able to see those pieces and not feel immense pain, but I am sure that day will come. And Anosanim was strong emotionally in a way that surprised me. He did not allow Talin to push him around.

Now we have to face Hitari's trial. I wonder if there is any room to leniency, or are those laws set in stone? I know Hitari must be punished and must go to prison, but putting someone in prison for the rest of his life (possibly for 60-70 years in Hitari's case) for stealing does seem like a disproportionate response.

[LilacMajesty]

OK  I've taken a few thousand breaths now, and I think I'm ready to face this.  While I'm ready to accept that Hitari is guilty, Sue has been reminding me of some things and I still think there is something VERY fishy going on with Ritek.  From skillfully avoiding going to the police station to not having a portrait done since he was a child to being so hostile towards Hitari.  SOMETHING is going on with him.  And have we seen him anywhere near Selorin yet?

[Susanne]

to not having a portrait done since he was a child

Well actually I didn't even think of that    What I was wondering was in chapter 115 I believe (about the portrait) this conversation......

 “I don't believe that I know of any portraits of you.”

            “Lo Harikunok has done several over the years,” Ritek said.  “They all hang in the family home.”

            Oh, what a shame.  “If you wouldn’t mind a bit of advice?”

            “Please,” Ritek said.  “I value your opinion.”

            “Lo Harikunok has done well in capturing young children by the fireside with their pets, but his area of expertise isn’t portraying the robust sexuality of maturity.  I really think that you ought to commission the Royal House of Art for a portrait or two which would more completely capture your adult nature.  Portraits hang for generations, reminding us of family and friends even after they’re gone, and you want yours to reflect your essence and personality, don’t you?”

            There was no reply for a moment.  Then Ritek cleared his throat.  “I’ll consider it.”



I would figure it to be a honor to go to the Royal House of Art so why would he hesitate for a moment before replying then say "I'll consider"  I would of said yes in a second.  Does he not want to go to the RHOA?  Has he even been there yet?

And I wanna know if theres anything else in the envelope that Rini found maybe there's more in there then just designs...well maybe there is and maybe there isn't but I would like to know.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

there is something VERY fishy going on with Ritek.  From skillfully avoiding going to the police station

From ITL 137:

            Anosanim answered every question to the fullest of his knowledge.  He wanted to be as helpful as possible, so he was honest about which things he knew and remembered with perfect accuracy, and which things he was a little fuzzy about.  Selorin had told him that witnesses who, seeking to aid the investigation, “remembered” more than they actually did, were more harmful than helpful, and could send the investigators in the wrong direction.

            When he finished, he wanted to stay; he couldn’t leave Talin during this.  So, after Ritek was through, Anosanim borrowed a little interrogation room, so he’d have somewhere more private to wait.  He felt tense, jittery, and he toyed with his hair as he paced the room, twirling loose strands around his fingers.  “I can’t believe that this is happening.  I can’t believe that they thought that they’d get away with it!  And I just can’t believe that someone like Lo Hunosetu would steal from another designer!  He’s practically a legend!”

            “It’s easy to get away with it,” Ritek said.  “Most people can’t tell the difference between two designers’ work on sight.  Who really knows the difference between Dunaronah’s cuffs and Setimetik’s?  To the two of us, it’s obvious at a glance.  To anyone else, it’s just the end of a sleeve.”

This looks to me like Anosanim and Ritek are at the police station together, and they both speak with the investigators.

-Matthew

[JaeFire]

I would figure it to be a honor to go to the Royal House of Art so why would he hesitate for a moment before replying then say "I'll consider"  I would of said yes in a second.  Does he not want to go to the RHOA?  Has he even been there yet?
[/color]

You know, I actually took the moment it took Ritek to reply as his reaction to Anosanim basically saying that his "essence and personality" had the "robust sexuality of maturity."  He was probably kind of shocked and flattered, as well as turned on.  It was kind of an unconscious compliment on Anosanim's part, to say such explicit things about him, and how they needed to be captured by the right portrait artist.  It shocked him into speechlessness for a second, and it took him a moment to answer.

I mean, the object of his sleepless nights and desperate affections just told him the "robust sexuality" of his "maturity" needed just the right artist, to capture the "essence and personality" of his "adult nature."  That probably made his day.

Also, his focus was all on Anosanim that night; I don't think he had enough blood in his brain to backhandedly insult the Royal House of Art, ::cough::, if you know what I mean.

not having a portrait done since he was a child

When Anosanim said, “I don't believe that I know of any portraits of you," and Ritek said, “Lo Harikunok has done several over the years," I'm pretty sure he meant that Lo Harikunok was their main portrait artist, and continued to do portraits of his family even after Ritek's childhood (i.e., Lo Harikunok did portraits of an adult Ritek since he did "several over the years").

That's why Anosanim was telling him to get a new portrait artist, who could more adequately capture his "adult nature."  They basically stuck with an artist who did great portraits of families, especially young children, and didn't look for a new one when the kids got older.       

- Jae

[Dena]

You know, I actually took the moment it took Ritek to reply as his reaction to Anosanim basically saying that his "essence and personality" had the "robust sexuality of maturity."  He was probably kind of shocked and flattered, as well as turned on.  It was kind of an unconscious compliment on Anosanim's part, to say such explicit things about him, and how they needed to be captured by the right portrait artist.  It shocked him into speechlessness for a second, and it took him a moment to answer.

Yeah, that was how I took it too.  At this point, I don't think Ritek's done anything that wrong, other than maybe not quite understood the relationship between all of the brothers - which is probably a product of just not having a family that's as in-each-other's-business as the seven siblings.  Unlike most of the other characters, he just hasn't really invested me into caring about him, or come off as genuinely likable, to me.  And maybe the fact that WE'RE not seeing him as a viable long-term person to invest in and care about is a product of Anosanim being too wrapped up in his family and Talin to do the same?  Just having a boyfriend at all is a big step for Anosanim who usually puts all his energy into work and caring about everyone else.  He might not be ready for more, so he doesn't look for more, and since we don't get Ritek's POV, we're not given enough insight to really know him.  Or at least not yet. (Just as we never really got Hitari's - which is telling in and of itself maybe?  The POV's of the husbands who stay - Xio Voe, Bade - we get their point of view as often as we get the actual brothers'.  I'd say that may be a product of whose book we're in - we get Voe 'cause we're in rainbow, we got Bade because we were in purple - but we continue to see Bade's POV here and there in Rainbow, so I dunno.  It's probably me reading too much into things!)

E.T.A
I have thinky thoughts about Talin, and just wanted to ramble.  So this might not make any sense, bear with me.

While I don't absolve Hitari of anything, or believe what happened was anything but his own doing and poor choices - I don't think Talin is entirely free of blame. 

Talin, for the most part, eschews most "artist" stereotypes.  But the one he does fall into is that of the artists passionately in love with his muse, putting him on a pedestal of perfection.  He knew Hitari's faults, it's true, but he still viewed Hitari through that lens, right up until he was forced to not anymore, and then Hitari fell off entirely because Talin couldn't justify keeping him there anymore.

Yet Talin himself says he should have known.  The signs were there, and he blinded himself to them.  Why?  Because he wanted the clean slate and to believe that Hitari was entirely reformed, or as close as HItari could be.  If he had asked sooner, would it have stopped it before it got too far?  He wanted to trust Hitari, I understand that.  But he also wanted to marry Hitari.  In Anorian society, marriage is very much a partnership - we saw how many questions Remin asked Bade and Orinakin to verify they were compatible long-term, and ready to make the marriage step. 

Talin saw that Hitari had too much money, and knew about his financial difficulties.  A man who intended to enter into a marriage - a partnership - would have asked where it was coming from.  Would Hitari have gotten angry?  Maybe.  Probably.  But if someone's partner in life is suddenly prosperous, then wouldn't their partner ask why?  They're expected to share in their lives, after all.  Talin didn't ask because he didn't want to hear the truth.  And what's more, he did leave Hitari to deal with his problems entirely on his own.  With their history, not stepping up to pay off debts - that's understandable.  But if he really wanted an equal partnership and a marriage, then he should have asked how Hitari was dealing with it, offered to help - even if it was just by advice and the like.  Hitari might not have liked it, but Talin should have made the attempt instead of having it become a topic they didn't discuss between them.  He loves Hitari, there's no doubt about that, and I have no doubt Hitari loves him, either - but they didn't function like a loving couple who could have made it work long term as they were, in my eyes.  They functioned as a muse and an artist, as passionate lovers with a shelf life to their affair.  To deepen it, they would have had to do more than make commitments of marriage - they would have had to commit themselves and allow the other into the parts of their lives they kept separate.

The fact that they didn't do that, that Talin knew but didn't ask and tried to blind himself to it and keep to his idea of what HItari was, and what their relationship was rather than open his eyes and deal with the reality of it, and see if they could talk about it, right what was wrong, fight and scream and see if there was a way for Hitari to make it right before it went too far - that's Hitari's fault.  But it's Talin's, too.

There's a lot being made of Hitari betraying Talin's trust, and he did.  But I think there's also an argument to be made that Talin himself wasn't really ready for this either.  The fact that he suspected didn't mean he couldn't wipe the slate clean - Child of the Gods or no, he's human, and humans remember - didn't mean he wasn't trusting Hitari.  But the fact that he didn't ASK when anyone in that situation would have, past wrongs or no - that, to me, means he wasn't ready to face the answer and what might happen, so he sat back and let it all unfold and hoped for the best.  Could he have stopped it and kept them together?  Probably not.  But stepping up to confront Hitari and his own fears would have signaled that Talin was ready for the steps he thinks he's ready for. 

So yes.  I think Hitari's still got a lot to learn and made huge and unforgivable mistakes, though I understand why.  But I think Talin's got some growing up to do, too, and that when he blames himself it's not going to entirely be out of line.  Hopefully he'll grow from this too, once the hurt starts to ebb a little.

Okay, I'm done rambling now.

[JaeFire]

I have thinky thoughts about Talin, and just wanted to ramble.  So this might not make any sense, bear with me.

[...]

Okay, I'm done rambling now.

    , fantastic ramble!  I think you're completely spot-on about it being both their faults.  I especially liked your points about the financial honesty aspect of true partnerships. 

The fact that the topic was rarely brought up, about Hitari's financial situation, was a red flag just in terms of their readiness to get married.  If they were really ready to marry each other, they would have known the ins and outs of each other's financial situations, and Talin should have brought it up and they should have talked about it, no matter how uncomfortable it was, or painful.  (I don't think Hitari could have, which is understandable, because it was a source of anger for him, as well as shame because he was essentially living like a pauper.  It should have been Talin.)

(Also, I don't know why, but I'm getting flashes right now of Bade and Orinakin's conversation about the people on Bade's prospective spouse list, and what a painful but necessary conversation that was--and what an honest conversation it was.  It strengthened their relationship because it made them realize their feelings about it.  Especially in Anorian society, those kinds of conversations are necessary before something as serious as marriage.)

Anyway, excellent ramble!  I hope you do it again!

- Jae

[Dena]

The fact that the topic was rarely brought up, about Hitari's financial situation, was a red flag just in terms of their readiness to get married.  If they were really ready to marry each other, they would have known the ins and outs of each other's financial situations, and Talin should have brought it up and they should have talked about it, no matter how uncomfortable it was, or painful.  (I don't think Hitari could have, which is understandable, because it was a source of anger for him, as well as shame because he was essentially living like a pauper.  It should have been Talin.)

Exactly.  If someone were in a stable, loving relationship, even if money was still managed independantly - if your partner rolls up in a Porsche out of the blue and their good-for-nothing brother is suddenly showing up at parties wearing designer clothes and jewels, you're going to ask what's going on.  Because if you're planning to share your life with someone, then you SHARE THEIR LIFE.  Even if you're afraid you don't want to know the answers. 

And I think that's what it comes back to - Talin didn't ask, because he was too afraid to know the answer, or suspected he already did, so he closed off and ignored it.  He'd given Hitari a clean slate and that's good - but on a clean slate, someone would still ask to know the details of a situation like that, and understand what was going on.  Talin wasn't prepared to deal with the truth, so he didn't. 

Part of their trouble comes down to a lack of communication.  How different might things have been if Talin had said something at the start, sat Hitari down and said "I love you, and I want to trust you, but I need to know what's going on.  I can't take care of your problems with money for you, but talk to me about it and maybe together we can find a better solution." 

Would it have worked?  Probably not, Hitari is very proud in his way.  But had Talin been ready, his response should have been something more along those lines, no?  Not refusing to talk about it because it would upset Hitari.  Married people have to be able to talk, even when they know the topic is uncomfortable.  (Bade and Orinakin's discussion was a good example, yes.)

I'm not Talin-bashing - I love him to death.  I just think that maybe he wasn't as grown up and ready to really be married as he thought he was.  There was probably a path that could have happened where he WOULD have been, just as there could have been a path where Hitari did the right thing.  But Talin didn't walk the way he needed to for that to happen either, so I think while Hitari was the one more obviously at fault and in the wrong here - Talin played his part too. 

Apparently I wasn't done rambling?  lol

And thank you Jae!  I like to get long-winded, so glad it's not minded!

[LilacMajesty]

there is something VERY fishy going on with Ritek.  From skillfully avoiding going to the police station

From ITL 137:

            Anosanim answered every question to the fullest of his knowledge.  He wanted to be as helpful as possible, so he was honest about which things he knew and remembered with perfect accuracy, and which things he was a little fuzzy about.  Selorin had told him that witnesses who, seeking to aid the investigation, “remembered” more than they actually did, were more harmful than helpful, and could send the investigators in the wrong direction.

            When he finished, he wanted to stay; he couldn’t leave Talin during this.  So, after Ritek was through, Anosanim borrowed a little interrogation room, so he’d have somewhere more private to wait.  He felt tense, jittery, and he toyed with his hair as he paced the room, twirling loose strands around his fingers.  “I can’t believe that this is happening.  I can’t believe that they thought that they’d get away with it!  And I just can’t believe that someone like Lo Hunosetu would steal from another designer!  He’s practically a legend!”

            “It’s easy to get away with it,” Ritek said.  “Most people can’t tell the difference between two designers’ work on sight.  Who really knows the difference between Dunaronah’s cuffs and Setimetik’s?  To the two of us, it’s obvious at a glance.  To anyone else, it’s just the end of a sleeve.”

This looks to me like Anosanim and Ritek are at the police station together, and they both speak with the investigators.

-Matthew

Oh sure - leave it up to you to correct me.  You think you're the author or something?  Oh wait - you are!  Anyway, I still think he's fishy. 

[Susanne]

You know, I actually took the moment it took Ritek to reply as his reaction to Anosanim basically saying that his "essence and personality" had the "robust sexuality of maturity."  He was probably kind of shocked and flattered, as well as turned on.  It was kind of an unconscious compliment on Anosanim's part, to say such explicit things about him, and how they needed to be captured by the right portrait artist.  It shocked him into speechlessness for a second, and it took him a moment to answer.

...I just pictured the look on Ritek face when I read this, your right I can see him being speechless.

I mean, the object of his sleepless nights and desperate affections just told him the "robust sexuality" of his "maturity" needed just the right artist, to capture the "essence and personality" of his "adult nature."  That probably made his day.

Also, his focus was all on Anosanim that night; I don't think he had enough blood in his brain to backhandedly insult the Royal House of Art, ::cough::, if you know what I mean.      

- Jae

Good point of view it makes alot of sense, thank you. 

[blondiechic0]

I feel like Talin right now...

[verysad]

That's why I believe Talin deserves to shoulder the blame. He never communicates. He knew Hitari had a huge debt to settle other than taking care of his family. Had he asked or even talk the financial matter with Hitari like an alpha male, this incident might have been prevented or at least shafted off.

Too many obvious signs...he just let them go.....

[LilacMajesty]

It is not Prince Nisutalin's place to pay off the debts of his lover.  Early on in the series, when Hitari first showed up, there were several mentions of him stealing jewels from the palace and giving them to his lovers.  So this "incident" is not the first.

[verysad]

What I mean is...Talin knew Hitari's financial situation before going back together. Out of a sudden, Hitari manage to settle all the debts and his sister wearing branded clothes within a short span of time. Any layman would know there's something wrong as Hitari himself admit that whenever he settles one debt, another would pops out. It's tough. He should have asked Hitari instead. Had he been persistent in this matter, this incident would not have come to this stage.

Talin already told Hitari in the beginning of their second relationship, he wont help Hitari in any financial means. Hitari got to settle on his own.

From my point of view, had Talin took time to communicate with Hitari ie Hitari's life, Hitari's family, Hitari's financial instead of treating him a muse...things might have turn differently.

I guess that's how real world is these days. Most of the divorce cases happen is due to lack of communication. Love no longer enough to keep marriage together.

[LilacMajesty]

In this case, I don't think communication would have helped.  Hitari knew exactly what he was doing and what the consequences were.  And I don't think it was ever said that the debts were paid off. 

[anaskee]

Hitari has to face the consequences of his actions.  He cannot blame Talin or anyone else for his decisions.  It took me a while to get things settled in my mind.  I keep asking why couldn't Kudorin stop Hitari.  I mean he stopped Bade from accepting Hitari's offer before.  He stopped Xio Voe from getting assasinated.  Then why not stop Hitari from stealing?  Why not confront Hitari and ask him if he wants to end up like his father.  That ought to stop Hitari on his tracks.  Then it hit me.  Kudorin cannot stop him because it's not just him.  Talin is not ready either.  I do understand why Talin doesn't want to rock the boat.  I've been in that situation before.  You know when you are so happy with your relationship that you don't want to do anything to ruin it?  Talin just does not want to face the fact that something's wrong.  He wanted this relationship to work so much and he did not want to cause any ripples.  That's just human.  But not healthy for relationships.  Right now I'm weeping for Talin and I don't know if I want to protect Hitari or slap him silly.

[JaeFire]

Hitari has to face the consequences of his actions.  He cannot blame Talin or anyone else for his decisions.  It took me a while to get things settled in my mind.  I keep asking why couldn't Kudorin stop Hitari.  I mean he stopped Bade from accepting Hitari's offer before.  He stopped Xio Voe from getting assasinated.  Then why not stop Hitari from stealing?  Why not confront Hitari and ask him if he wants to end up like his father.  That ought to stop Hitari on his tracks. 

See, I don't see how Kudorin stopping Bade from accepting Hitari's offer was any different from how he soothed Hitari's heart, tried to help him make the right choices.  The difference wasn't Kudorin or Kudorin's actions: the difference was between Hitari and Bade.  The difference was about who they were individually, and how that affected their choices.

(Also, I think there's a big difference between Kudorin stopping Xio Voe from being assassinated and stopping Hitari from stealing, but I'll get to that later.)

Firstly, Kudorin encouraged Hitari just like he reminded Bade.  Bade needed a reminder of what his mother taught him, something he'd already internalized, something that was already a part of him, in order to stop himself from rejecting Hitari's offer.  He got a nudge from Kudorin just like Hitari did.  And just like Hitari, Bade could have chosen differently. 

He could have made the choice to ignore Kudorin, could have accepted Hitari's offer.  Kudorin couldn't force Bade into saying no to Hitari, just like he couldn't force Hitari to stop stealing. 

With Bade, there was still a great deal of free will and personal choice involved--just like in Hitari's case. 

After all, Kudorin did tell Talin, "I can’t tell you how many times I soothed his heart, and calmed his spirit, and encouraged him to do the right thing.  I can’t tell you how consistently Alanohi was with him, loving him, blessing him.  We wanted the best for Hitari.  We tried to give it to him. "  That means Kudorin tried to stop Hitari--just like he reminded Bade with "Remember what your mother said.”   Kudorin never told him, "By the way, Bade.  You're going to meet Hitari, Talin's ex-boyfriend.  He's going to proposition you.  Don't accept his offer.  If you do, it'll open up a whole can of worms.  So don't. Okay, off to the festival with you!"

Because there's only so much a god can do before he's maneuvering his people like puppets.  That's why it's called free will, because people need to be able to make their own choices or else they're no longer free.  It was ultimately his decision; he could have chosen differently despite whatever Kudorin said or did.  Kudorin gave Bade a chance (like he gave Hitari a chance with "We gave him our most precious gift, even when he’d already rejected it”), and Bade used Kudorin's advice well and made the right decision with it, remembering his mother's words, remembering their importance, and then he made the choice to follow her long-ago advice. 

It seems like Kudorin and Alanohi were consistently, repeatedly trying to do the same for Hitari--but he made the wrong choice anyway.  He was being helped by the gods, like Bade was, over and over and over, and he still made the immoral choice.

(Also, Hitari got a wake-up call about morality and wrong choices a long time ago, from Selorin.  He got his warning.  And yet...

Ch.27:
“That’s a lie,” Selorin snapped back.  “You know exactly what the truth is, and you distort it for your own purposes.  You lie to use and manipulate and swindle and con, and you’re so used to it, you pretend that you can’t tell the difference anymore.  But you know what you’ve done, you know every lie you’ve ever told.”  Disgusted, sickened by the unapologetic, unashamed boldness of it, he muttered, “You’re just like your father.”

[...]

Hitari froze.  Literally froze, the hand holding his fork hanging in mid-air, his gaze fixed on Selorin’s face, his lush lips parted.

[...]

“If you don’t want to be like him,” Selorin said as Hitari neared the door, “tell the truth.”)

---------------------------------------------------

Now, about Xio Voe... I don't see stopping Xio Voe from being assassinated as the same thing as stopping Hitari from stealing. 

It would be similar if he were trying to stop Xio Voe from assassinating someone, because it's his choice, a matter of exercising his agency, but he didn't get a choice as to whether someone would attempt to poison him. 

Stopping Xio Voe from being assassinated would be similar if Kudorin stopped Hitari from being burglarized, if he were going to be a victim as Xio Voe was going to be a victim. 

Again, it comes back to free will and personal agency.  There's a difference between Kudorin saving his king from death and Kudorin making an Anorian citizen's correct choices so he doesn't have to himself. 

(Also, Xio Voe is the King of Orina Anoris.  No King or Queen of Orina Anoris has ever been killed, to our knowledge.  The way no spouse of a reigning royal diplomat has ever been killed. 

Ch.83:
            Uncertainty, humility, confusion.  “When you say that you trust in the gods to protect me, is that like trusting them to see that your dinner is pleasantly warm, or trusting them to see that the sun rises each morning?”

            “I trust in them to protect you the way that I trust in them to protect me, or Anikira.  It isn’t written, it isn’t guaranteed, but it’s understood that, as I am Orinakin, my spouse will be safe throughout my reign.  Surely you know this.”

            “You never told me!”

            He was baffled.  “Everyone knows that my spouse is as protected as I am.”)

Also, the Soracic gods have asked Kudorin to protect him, from one god to another.

Ch.101: “I am known as Arraise.  They call me their god of creation.  Xio Voe is my favored child.  He is reoluxe zisoal rarascet.  He was created in perfection.  I will bless him, love him, and defend him for all of his days, and I ask you to do the same.”

There was no way Xio Voe was going to get killed.  It's not his time yet. 

(By the way, I agree with you on the fact that Talin wasn't ready either.  Sure, maybe in a world where Anosukinom was a controlling, manipulative, puppet-master god, Kudorin could have stopped Hitari.  But that wouldn't have changed the fact that they wouldn't have lasted anyway, and that Talin, deep inside as we've just found out from Ch.141, knew that.)

- Jae

[anaskee]

I know I wasn't being totally logical about Hitari and Kudorin.  It was just my initial reaction.  With Hitari's background and their tumultuous past, it seemed too easy to have a happy ever after.  And yet, I was desperately hoping that they would deal with all the difficulties and be together in the end.  Being faced with the end of Talin and Hitari's relationship, it took a while for me to accept it and I was still trying to find a way to fix it.  Does that makes sense?

[JaeFire]

I know I wasn't being totally logical about Hitari and Kudorin.  It was just my initial reaction.  With Hitari's background and their tumultuous past, it seemed too easy to have a happy ever after.  And yet, I was desperately hoping that they would deal with all the difficulties and be together in the end.  Being faced with the end of Talin and Hitari's relationship, it took a while for me to accept it and I was still trying to find a way to fix it.  Does that makes sense?

Dude, it totally makes sense.  Really, the only reason I addressed it at all is because it seemed like was a substantial amount of people who felt the same way at first, who also got the same initial reaction.  It's definitely a knee-jerk, first impulse thing.

Also, there's a certain empathy with Talin's thoughts and feelings that's understandable, because we feel for him and he's going through a tough time. 

His reaction makes sense--he's feeling trapped, he feels so much guilt and anger that it's trying to move outwards, he's unconsciously trying to find someone else to blame besides himself and Hitari--and I think that's why that initial reaction was provoked in some people, because of strongly identifying with him.

(What I was really trying to do was address other people's lingering anger at Kudorin and you gave me a great springboard to use--after all, it's clear that you're not pissed at him anymore, that you don't feel like he's to blame.)


- Jae

[anaskee]

Well, you make sense more than I do!    Now back to the Rainbow Book.

[TaraAngelX]

Now back to the Rainbow Book.

[SilverMoon28]

No one knew that today was the end of everything.

 
 

*wail*

[SilverMoon28]

I just need to hold Talin right now.

And I'm not even finished reading.

I mentioned this to Liz, and she told me she was crying so... 

It's heartwrenching!!!!!

I mean, how was Talin to know?!  Yes, okay, everyone suspected, but... *sob*  Everyone thought that he was reformed!

I need to take off the banners I made of Hitari now... unless I just put a big black cross over them...

*sniffle*

Which meant that it was time.  Time for what Talin had never wanted.  Time for what Talin had, whether deliberately or unconsciously, avoided.

He hated Hitari Samora.

Yeah... I suspect you do, Talin... *sob*

.............................................................................................

*bursts into tears*