Hitari, Anosanim, and Talin

[Falconer]

[NOTE FROM MATTHEW: These comments used to be in the thread for part 122.  When a specific Hitari-centered discussion began, this section of the original 122 thread was moved here.]

*** Spoiler Alert ***

Really, does the theory Hitari/Anosanim seem as far-fetched as before?  This is SO happening!

Also, anyone else thinks maybe Remin is underestimating himself and his self-control? Methinks he needs to learn to savor a bite, to taste, to nibble, without wolfing down the whole slice. That's what I see in his future. A long, intense, teasing foreplay. 

[LilacMajesty]

I really can't see Hitari/Anosanim because I can't see Anosanim doing that to Talin.  Plus, its been said a few times that Anosanim tends to be REALLY friendly with Talin's boyfriends.    I have to say that Remin probably knows himself very well.  And we have seen what a glutton he is with food.  I think we're getting really, really close to a major breakthrough with Xio Voe.  He's not going to be able to take it much longer.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

The part's up, so spoilers will abound.

Nothing fazes Anikira.

I can't believe that Selorin's sending Topano on such menial errands.  I don't think that Topano can believe it, either.  But maybe that's just me.

Man, Remin put his foot down.

I like that old-school Orinakin is in love with Fet Kailoe but still having sex with other guys.  Hey, I'm in love with you and everything, but it's not like we have a commitment.

-Matthew

[Falconer]

I really can't see Hitari/Anosanim because I can't see Anosanim doing that to Talin.  Plus, its been said a few times that Anosanim tends to be REALLY friendly with Talin's boyfriends.    I have to say that Remin probably knows himself very well.  And we have seen what a glutton he is with food.  I think we're getting really, really close to a major breakthrough with Xio Voe.  He's not going to be able to take it much longer.

I totally see it, but it's just a feeling though... little things thrown here and there that stood out to me.
Like when Hitari and Rini were posing for the painting, they mentioned something about him being dominative. Yes, he was posing, but I dunno, I felt like that there was something there. I got the impression that Hitari would make a very good top (hint hint).
Also, in the Chapter 122, how Matthew oh-so-casually mentioned that Hitari got hard after the kiss? Notice also that he kissed Anosanim before Talin.
Hmm what else? It's little things really. The way that Talin seems to love Hitari's talent as model more than Hitari himself? Like he's attracted to the art in Hitari, he's constantly aware of that, it transpires in everything they do together. It makes one wonder, is it Talin the man who loves Hitari or Talin the artist? I would be tempted to say both, but.
Lastly, who's the only person Talin wouldn't mind losing Hitari to? You got it: Anosanim! It's happening, I tell you. 

[wutendeskind]

It makes one wonder, is it Talin the man who loves Hitari or Talin the artist? I would be tempted to say both, but.
Lastly, who's the only person Talin wouldn't mind losing Hitari to? You got it: Anosanim! It's happening, I tell you. 

I think it's impossible to separate Talin the artist from Talin the man.  With other brothers, like Remin, I think it's easier to separate their royal duties from who they are as people, but with something like art, the way it affects everything Talin does, I don't think the two can be separated.

Also, I can't see Anosanim getting with Hitari on a whim.  It's not like they can accidentally have sex.  I could maybe see them taking things a bit farther than the kissing they're doing (there's obviously mutual attraction there), but because Anorians do separate love and sex, I don't think it would ever develop into strong feelings on either of their parts.  If Anosanim was going to fall in love with Hitari, it would have happened already.  Anosanim isn't stupid and he loves Talin - even if Hitari were trying to push it too far,  I think Anosanim would be able to pick up on it. 

[SilverMoon28]

Remin!

Rini!

Orgies!

Rainbow room!!

AH!!!!!!!!

Good morning to me.

Okay... so... for one thing... *smacks the living hell out of Xio Voe*  He will not marry for love... the hell he won't.  Ugh... I always get anry when he says crap like that.  Although a few 'awe's' escaped me when Xio Voe said that he was afraid of falling in love with Kudorin, I could smack him!!  *smacks him*.  And where the hell does he get off belittling Anorian priests?!?!?!?!?  Yes, I agree that we're close to a breakthrough with him, but I'm going to hurt him if he keeps upsetting Kudorin.

Poor poor Remin...  I completely understand where he's coming from.  He wants a man's touch, but he can't permit himself the luxury because he knows that... well...

(ch. 122)
Remin snorted, crossing his legs.  “Bade wouldn’t stop me if his mother were in the room.”

HA!!!!  Needless to say that I can't wait for the Yellow/Gold book.

Love the way Kudorin just made all the belas disappear lol. tee-hee...

I don't see Anosanim ever getting with Hitari... I just don't.  Hitari would be devastated and there's no way Anosanim would do that to his twin brother.  Not unless Matthew has a bad surprise in store for us.  Do you??

I am officially in love with the rainbow room.

Vani

[LilacMajesty]

who's the only person Talin wouldn't mind losing Hitari to? You got it: Anosanim!

I repeat, Anosanim WOULD NOT hurt Talin that way.  Its just completely impossible.

[Falconer]

I think it's impossible to separate Talin the artist from Talin the man.  With other brothers, like Remin, I think it's easier to separate their royal duties from who they are as people, but with something like art, the way it affects everything Talin does, I don't think the two can be separated.

Also, I can't see Anosanim getting with Hitari on a whim.  It's not like they can accidentally have sex.  I could maybe see them taking things a bit farther than the kissing they're doing (there's obviously mutual attraction there), but because Anorians do separate love and sex, I don't think it would ever develop into strong feelings on either of their parts.  If Anosanim was going to fall in love with Hitari, it would have happened already.  Anosanim isn't stupid and he loves Talin - even if Hitari were trying to push it too far,  I think Anosanim would be able to pick up on it. 

I don't see Anosanim ever getting with Hitari... I just don't.  Hitari would be devastated and there's no way Anosanim would do that to his twin brother.  Not unless Matthew has a bad surprise in store for us.  Do you??

Vani

I repeat, Anosanim WOULD NOT hurt Talin that way.  Its just completely impossible.

  Okay, I'm not saying that Anosanim and Hitari are going to elope behind Talin's back. I don't think they're going to get together on a whim or have sex accidentally. No no. That's not what I meant at all. We all know that Anosanim needs to be romanced, his story wouldn't play out like this.


I think that Talin and Hitari are going to part amiably before Talin realizes/suspects that subconsciously (for Hitari and Anosanim) something might be going on (or possibly because of that. It's just like Talin to do something like this for Anosanim. That would be consistent with his character). It's not going to happen overnight, of course not. It might take books before it happens. I don't know how it's going to happen, I've just got a feeling that that's how things are going to end up. 

[LilacMajesty]

Just remember, Matthew loves to surprise us. 

[Falconer]

Just remember, Matthew loves to surprise us. 

It was just speculation, nothing more.

[Sunset]

I love the idea of Hitari quietly seducing Anosanim, leading him into mischief without his really realising it.  I think there is possibility for heartbreaking things to take place within the series: let's face it, that seems to be the foundation of Hitari and Talin's story.  But I think the happy endings, and/or happy resolutions to any heartbreaking story will be resolved quite quickly.   

[JaeFire]

Mmm, I'm gonna toss in my two cents (and not a full argument because a few people have already given some great explanations why and I quite agree with them):

I don't see Anosanim and Hitari ever happening.  ::nod, nod::

- Jae

[LilacMajesty]

Never, ever, ever

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I don't see Anosanim and Hitari ever happening.

We know Hitari wants it.

We know Anosanim wants it.

I guess the only question left is how Talin feels about it.

-Matthew

[JaeFire]

I don't see Anosanim and Hitari ever happening.

We know Hitari wants it.

We know Anosanim wants it.

I guess the only question left is how Talin feels about it.

-Matthew

...

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

...

I expected your reaction to be a series of quotations and citations, reminding us all how Talin has felt about/reacted to Anosanim and Hitari's intimacy over the course of the series, so that we could pick apart the evidence.

Did someone else sign in under JaeFire's name?

-Matthew

[JaeFire]

...

I expected your reaction to be a series of quotations and citations, reminding us all how Talin has felt about/reacted to Anosanim and Hitari's intimacy over the course of the series, so that we could pick apart the evidence.

Did someone else sign in under JaeFire's name?

-Matthew

Nope, it's me.  But I know you said it just to taunt me!  I am too sleepy from my nap to rise to your bait, sir! 

...Maybe later. 

- Jae

[Diamond]

We know Hitari wants it.

We know Anosanim wants it.

I guess the only question left is how Talin feels about it.

-Matthew

We know Anosanim wants it?!    I would like to debate that at length starting with a hearty NUH-UH!


Anosanim doesn't want Hitari any more than he wanted Etaki.  I believe his affection with Talin's boyfriends has everything to do with his symbiotic relationship with Talin and almost nothing to do with the boyfriend himself.  He gets to know them very personally and somewhat intimately because they are a major part of Talin's life and refuses to let anything having to do with Talin alienate him. 

I think that by becoming close to them he prevents them from seeing him as a third wheel.  By keeping the boyfriend happy with his uber presence he keeps Talin from having to have the "Can't we just have some time by ourselves without your brother" talk which would cause tension in the relationship.

I don't have to go into Anosanim's undying loyalty to/borderline obsession with Talin. Pick any Talin/Anosanim scene as an example. If you've met Anosanim you know he always puts Talin before himself and never considers it a compromise. Moving on.

My next point is that in Ch.122 specifically, Rini tells us that all the brothers are just holding back with Bade to be polite (I assume because he's foreign), and that Remin could have gotten some good make out time long ago if he had wanted to. All the siblings are more affectionate with each other's boyfriends and spouses, each to a different extent. But they're all down for it.

Based on that, if Anosanim wants Hitari then Rini wants to whisk Bade away, Remin is really considering making his Xio Voe BJ fantasy come true, and Desin will screw every one of Selorin's boyfriends before their month ends.

Basically I think Anosanim could have sex with Hitari every Thursday and never consider having a full relationship with him. Even a mild disruption to Talin's emotional well being would keep him from entertaining the thought.

In ITL and in real life, kissing is hot, but you don't always fall in love because of it.  Sometimes no matter how many times you kiss a person or even get off with them you still never feel romantically inclined toward them.

I would need to see emotional investment from Anosanim, a crush, a quickened heartbeat, daydreams, anything to tell me his heart wants to be with Hitari. Without that it's just lust, and not much of it.

- Diamond

[JaeFire]

(EVERYTHING)
- Diamond

<====== ::points frantically:: OMG EVERYTHING YOU SAID! 

::sits for a moment in silence, soaking in the blissful feeling of a hearing from a Voice of Reason:: 

 

- Jae

[Sunset]

I don't see Anosanim and Hitari ever happening.

We know Hitari wants it.

We know Anosanim wants it.

I guess the only question left is how Talin feels about it.

-Matthew

YES!

[Sunset]

I would need to see emotional investment from Anosanim, a crush, a quickened heartbeat, daydreams, anything to tell me his heart wants to be with Hitari. Without that it's just lust, and not much of it.

- Diamond

I noticed one heck of a guilty blush after their latest kiss - doesn't that suggest something less than innocent?  I don't see Rini looking the slightest bit guilty for getting all over Bade.

[Falconer]

Yay for Falconer being cured!!!!!

lol

Thanks! It feels good to be able to breathe again!

I love the idea of Hitari quietly seducing Anosanim, leading him into mischief without his really realising it.  I think there is possibility for heartbreaking things to take place within the series: let's face it, that seems to be the foundation of Hitari and Talin's story.  But I think the happy endings, and/or happy resolutions to any heartbreaking story will be resolved quite quickly.   

Yep, I definitely think angst is on the way for these 3. We'll just have to see how it plays out.

I don't see Anosanim and Hitari ever happening.

We know Hitari wants it.

We know Anosanim wants it.

I guess the only question left is how Talin feels about it.

-Matthew

Well, we don't "know" anything. We suspect. This is just speculation after all. There are (strong) hints. But nothing has been explicitly stated so far. This could potentially lead to nothing...or everything! 

[...]
- Diamond

 Okay so to summarize Diamond's post, Anosanim doesn't feel particularly attracted to Hitari and there can't be any romantic involvement between the two because Anosanim would never contemplate such a thing. Anosanim wouldn't consider getting involved with Hitari because he puts Talin above everything and above himself, but that doesn't contradict my point. Not at all. In fact, I believe that it's going to be the natural progression of the attraction between Hitari and Anosanim. Anosanim will not want to be Hitari...because of Talin. He will deny it. Because of Talin. But we'll get to that later.

Anosanim kisses all of Talin's boyfriends, yes. But I think this little habit will turn (is turning) against him because he'll find (finds) himself responding to Hitari. I think Anosanim gets dismissed easily as being superficial (in the sense that all he thinks about is Talin, clothes, make-up, shoes, work and stuff like that)... So people are expecting him to fall in love dramatically and to be very open, very vocal about it. But I think that Anosanim is misunderstood. (Kinda like the friend who's always cheerful and nobody realizes they're hurting, depressed, worried or that they're in love with someone...) Remember when he had problems at the construction site... if there hadn't been talks about the tension there, the casual observer (and arguably some of his brothers) wouldn't have known that Anosanim was reading the situation correctly, was hurting and was aware of what needed to be done. When Talin went to talk to him about it, Anosanim rapidly changed the subject. Talin didn't insist. Nobody really knows what goes on in Anosanim's mind. I'll even go as far as to say that not even Talin really knows all that goes on in Anosanim's head.

See in Chapter 122:

While Anosanim headed towards the door, Talin admired the luxurious fall of his abundant hair, the exquisitely tailored lines of his pants, the way he distractedly touched his mouth as if realizing that he needed to reapply his lipstick.  “Anosanim.”

            “Hmm?”  Anosanim turned, his expression inquisitive, his tone suggesting that he’d been lost in thought.

            Talin wondered what he’d been thinking about in those steps from the bed to the door.  Ritek?  The stadium?  Shoes?  “Thanks for coming with us.”

I actually think that Anosanim was thinking about the kiss. That's why he was touching his lips. The kiss affected him. Did Talin even fathom that? No. He assumed Anosanim was thinking about reapplying his lipstick.
During the kiss, Talin realized that they were kissing for a long time, but he didn't think much of it... when Hitari got hard "matter-of-factly", Talin didn't think much of it. If he had paid more attention, perhaps he would have a better idea of what Anosanim was thinking about... I can see Anosanim falling in love slowly, quietly. And really, a "tragically impossible" love is just the thing to satisfy his romantic mind! 

I noticed one heck of a guilty blush after their latest kiss - doesn't that suggest something less than innocent?  I don't see Rini looking the slightest bit guilty for getting all over Bade.

Amen to that!!

[LilacMajesty]

I'm siding with Diamond and Jae on this one.  It just doesn't make sense otherwise. 

[JaeFire]

In fact, I believe that it's going to be the natural progression of the attraction between Hitari and Anosanim. Anosanim will not want to be Hitari...because of Talin. He will deny it. Because of Talin. But we'll get to that later.

That's just it.  I agree with Diamond: there's nothing there to deny.  Even with Etaki, Anosanim said that "I liked Etaki because you liked him, and I smiled when I saw him because he made you smile" (Ch.12).  That same feeling translates to Hitari.  Sure, Hitari's gorgeous, and he and Anosanim flirt a lot, but never when they're alone.  It's always either in front of Talin or in front of the other brothers.  They never even consciously decided that, because it's just a game that they play, the way Rini makes out with Bade, the way Anosanim makes out with Bade.  If they wanted each other, there would have been at least one hint of the desire for a one-on-one clandestine meeting, but there hasn't been, because there's no deeper emotional attraction. 

Anosanim kisses all of Talin's boyfriends, yes. But I think this little habit will turn (is turning) against him because he'll find (finds) himself responding to Hitari. I think Anosanim gets dismissed easily as being superficial (in the sense that all he thinks about is Talin, clothes, make-up, shoes, work and stuff like that)... So people are expecting him to fall in love dramatically and to be very open, very vocal about it. But I think that Anosanim is misunderstood. (Kinda like the friend who's always cheerful and nobody realizes they're hurting, depressed, worried or that they're in love with someone...) Remember when he had problems at the construction site... if there hadn't been talks about the tension there, the casual observer (and arguably some of his brothers) wouldn't have known that Anosanim was reading the situation correctly, was hurting and was aware of what needed to be done. When Talin went to talk to him about it, Anosanim rapidly changed the subject. Talin didn't insist. Nobody really knows what goes on in Anosanim's mind. I'll even go as far as to say that not even Talin really knows all that goes on in Anosanim's head.

I actually think that Anosanim was thinking about the kiss. That's why he was touching his lips. The kiss affected him. Did Talin even fathom that? No. He assumed Anosanim was thinking about reapplying his lipstick.

Actually, I'm going to argue that it was simply a description: that Talin admired "the way he distractedly touched his mouth as if realizing that he needed to reapply his lipstick"--not that "Oh, he distractedly touched his mouth because he needed to reapply lipstick."  Talin picks up quite well that he's preoccupied, because Talin "[wonders] what he’d been thinking about in those steps from the bed to the door." 

And about Talin not being able to talk to Anosanim about his workers because Anosanim kept changing the subject?  That wasn't because Talin didn't understand Anosanim, or notice what hell he was going through.  I don't believe that Talin's "not [insisting]" means that he doesn't "really [know] what goes on in Anosanim's mind."  That was Talin ultimately respecting Anosanim's space, and his abilities as a leader to eventually make a decision about his workers.  He knew all along what Anosanim was going through.  Maybe, like you said, people have a tendency to dismiss Anosanim as superficial, but Talin never has.  He would notice if Anosanim were falling in love with Hitari.

(Ch.88) "It was a simple question, innocently phrased, but Talin felt anger kick in.  Feeling his expression darken, he tightened his lips.  What could he say?  Yes?  No?  Neither one was accurate.  Anosanim was working harder than ever, and his personal achievements were remarkable.  But Anosanim’s projects, due to his workers, hit new bumps in the road every day."

Talin knows Anosanim, loves Anosanim, better than all of their brothers (except Kudorin, but that doesn't count because he's a god and knows/loves everybody):  Example:

(Ch.92) “Hey.”  Talin tucked Anosanim’s hair behind his ear, a casual touch that spoke volumes.  Talin didn’t groom Anosanim unless he felt particularly affectionate, felt particularly protective, or wanted to demonstrate loyalty and support.  “How are you?”

This was about the workers.  It must be.  They’d been having a silent conversation on the subject for months now.

Talin knows what needs to be done, but he also knows (because of what Kudorin warned him about during the night before his and Anosanim's ascension) that he has to trust Anosanim to take care of his workers his way, or else it would have made Anosanim look very incapable.

(Ch.51)
“I want you to allow him to resolve his problems in his own ways.  Don’t step in and take care of things for him.  He’s capable of protecting himself.”

Talin didn’t like the sound of that at all, and his instincts rebelled against what Kudorin said.

“Anosanim is an adult and a very strong one.  If you step in to fix things for him, it will look as if he can’t handle his new role.  That would be a setback very difficult to overcome, so early in his reign.  You don’t want to do that to him, Talin.”

Shit.  Suppressing his arguments, Talin forced himself to submit.  “I’ll support him without interfering.”

During the kiss, Talin realized that they were kissing for a long time, but he didn't think much of it... when Hitari got hard "matter-of-factly", Talin didn't think much of it. If he had paid more attention, perhaps he would have a better idea of what Anosanim was thinking about... I can see Anosanim falling in love slowly, quietly. And really, a "tragically impossible" love is just the thing to satisfy his romantic mind! 

I think you're seriously underestimating Talin's understanding (and love) for Anosanim.  He and Anosanim have been described not "[needing] messages or codes or secret systems" because "they already share a brain" (Ch.107).  Talin always pays attention to Anosanim, has always paid attention to Anosanim, and the reason I think he doesn't think much of Hitari getting hard is because he understands that a natural physical response of arousal is not an indicator of deeper emotional attachment.  If it is, then Bade has A LOT to answer to Orinakin for, because it means he's had A LOT of emotional attachments.  Yes, Hitari and Anosanim are good friends, but that doesn't denote love.  A kiss doesn't mean romantic love.  Sure, it may mean lust, but this is Orina Anoris.  People have lustsex all the time.  I don't think Anosanim could hide anything from Talin if his life depended on it, never mind a deep and repressed attraction for Hitari.  Why?  Because Anosanim couldn't even hide his conflicted, deep, repressed attraction to Ritek!  (Which Talin noticed and fixed for him.)

Amen to that!!

If you guys are talking about this:
(Ch.122) "Paying attention again, Talin watched Anosanim blush prettily and lick his lips."

I have to put forth that blushing after a kiss doesn't necessarily denote guilt--it could just be sex flush.  Getting hot because it feels just that good, physically.  And he seems to lick his lips from satisfaction, to show that he enjoyed the kiss, which he doesn't hide from Talin at all.  There's no description of guilt other than the mere existence of a blush, which doesn't necessarily mean guilt.  If that's the kind of evidence being presented, I'd like to counter with:

(Ch.76)  “Oh, Bade.”  Cheeks red, eyes bright, lip gloss definitely mussed, Anosanim looked somewhat, um, ravished.  Hand flying to his throat, he blinked, thick lashes fluttering prettily.

So, using the logic that a blush means guilt because of unacknowledged emotional longings, I suppose we should take Anosanim's reaction to making out with Bade near the balloons as a deep, hungry, suppressed, forbidden desire to be loved and ravished by his brother's husband?

- Jae

[Diamond]

Here's my theory on Lo Hitari Samora.

When Talin broke up with Etaki, Anosanim told us how Hitari's betrayal had been hard on both of the twins. The hardest thing Anosanim has ever done has been to watch his other half suffer a massively broken heart.

Anosanim had to work on being friendly with Hitari again, on trusting him again after they got back together. It was a conscious decision on his part to re initiate their physical closeness.

I think this could be a case of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer. We all know that Anosanim is, to put it mildly, protective of Talin. Well if he's in the middle of their relationship he'll have a better chance of confronting Hitari about old behaviors resurfacing. He can keep a watch on things and try to do what he can to prevent the same thing from happening to Talin all over again.

Not to sound like a soap opera, but he knows what Hitari is capable of. He was there for the smiling lies, the word-twisting arguments, and the self-serving betrayal. But now that Hitari wants to play nice, Talin gets his perfect living-art-boyfriend, but what about Anosanim? No one apologized to him. No one healed his broken heart. I think he still has plenty of resentment and skepticism about Hitari and he's watching closely.

I think Anosanim gets dismissed easily as being superficial ... - (Kinda like the friend who's always cheerful and nobody realizes they're hurting, depressed, worried or that they're in love with someone...) Remember when he had problems at the construction site... if there hadn't been talks about the tension there, the casual observer (and arguably some of his brothers) wouldn't have known that Anosanim was reading the situation correctly, was hurting and was aware of what needed to be done.

That makes me think that he could hide his resentment against Hitari and no one would know. He could watch and wait and if everything turns out fine and the relationship works out I think he can let it go. But if Hitari makes one wrong move, Anosanim would make him suffer for whatever new thing he did plus all the old stuff. Anosanim may seem oblivious on the surface at times, but as Falconer pointed out, he pays attention to what's really going on, no matter how cheerful and optimistic he sounds.


And by the way, what about Ritek? Anosanim is falling in love this very moment. WITH SOMEONE ELSE! The guy he just had sex with the day before yesterday. The man couldn't even sleep because all he could think about was Ritek. He repaired everything at Satatunin  to destract himself from thinking about Ritek. And if you want attraction:

He was very attracted to Ritek, sexually, and he was terribly aroused by the thought of Ritek’s naked body settling heavily between his thighs.  He thought that Ritek might be just the kind of lover he desired, experienced enough to handle him, considerate enough to please him, and physically powerful enough to sate him.[117.9]

And this sounds more like a man falling in love or lust than a blush and an unseen erection:

I adore romance.  And nothing turns me on more than a romantic man.”  Anosanim kissed him, slowly, running his fingers through Ritek’s thick, luscious hair, enjoying the feel of their warm, naked bodies intertwined, as desire gradually built anew.  Ritek touched him, caressed him, kissed him everywhere.  Ever responsive to the sounds of his pleasure, Ritek was a fast learner, and would soon turn budding desire into roaring passion.  The erotic delights of Ritek’s sexual mastery made Anosanim reconsider letting him leave.[117.13]

He already has a love interest that Talin is encouraging and that he is helpless to resist.

Anosanim is intelligent (technically a genius), he's literally one of the most powerful men in the country, he's a child of the gods, he is stunningly handsome/beautiful, he is impeccably dressed every day, he's sweet, he's caring, he'd give you the world.  Every one who likes men in Orina Anoris would want to be with him. Why would he need break his own twin's heart to find love? Even if they got together after Talin's breakup, why should Talin have to suffer watching them together, seeing his exact body with orange hair be happy with the man who tore his heart apart twice?

I think Matthew loves his characters too much to do that to Talin.

- Diamond

[JaeFire]

Here's my theory on Lo Hitari Samora.

 (EVERYTHING)

- Diamond

I think I might be in love with you. ::nod, nod::

- Jae

[Diamond]

I think I might be in love with you. ::nod, nod::

- Jae

I know what you mean, because I'm just reading your post agreeing with everything. And what's cool is you covered all the stuff I wanted to get to, but didn't have the time to look up.

Basically, I think we see the situation similarly.

- Diamond

[Rhia]

Basically, I think we see the situation similarly.

I was on the phone with her, and I suddenly hear, "You need to go read what Diamond wrote on the 122 thread! It's brilliant! I never thought of it, I'm not sure I agree, but I can't disprove it!"

She sounded scary-excited.

Someday, my ears will recover.   

[SilverMoon28]

Thank you!!

I'd have written the same thing as Diamond and Jae, but my head won't stop pounding long enough for me to think too clearly...

Vani

[Diamond]

Now I'm dying to know, JaeFire, where do you disagree?   

[JaeFire]

I would like to quote Rhia, because she's too lazy to post this herself:

(After a message from Diamond about a point we both forgot to address that sparked a mini-discussion on the phone.  This is Rhia's response to that) :

"Basically, I think it would hurt Talin more if Anosanim were the one to take Hitari away from him, so to speak, because his one consolation when he let Hitari go the first time was that, out of all of the men that Hitari cheated on him with, none of them were his brothers.  So to have Hitari not only sexually but emotionally leave him for not only one of his brothers, but the brother he's closest to, would be an enormous emotional blow."  

Whoo!

- Jae

[SilverMoon28]

You guys are so making me wanna read ITL from the beginning again... but I'm already re-reading 'Sucker'!!!!

Hmph.

Talin and Anosanim are as close as brothers could be.  Agreeing with everything that's been said, I'll say that neither of them could betray the other like that.  A betrayal on Anosanim's part would devastate Talin more than Hitari leaving in the first place (not to mention that Anorians would just be stunned, and I don't now if Kudorin would be all that happy either).

Just my two cents.

Vani

[JaeFire]

Now I'm dying to know, JaeFire, where do you disagree?   

That's the most brilliant thing!  I don't disagree because I CAN'T!  It's amazing!   

It never occurred to me, that Anosanim could be playing "friends close, but enemies closer" (which is a brilliant line of thought, by the way).  I don't think we have enough out of the text from Anosanim's POV explicitly stating that this is his modus operandi regarding Hitari... but we don't have enough evidence disproving it either!

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!  I LOVE IT!!!

- Jae

[Diamond]

  Honestly, I hadn't thought about it before, but the comments about Anosanim hiding his feelings made me think that it could be possible. He was so proactive in the break up with Etaki and he kept saying how he was supporting Talin's decision to go back to Hitari. I don't think he ever said that he thought it should happen. And I remember him having a moment at the makeup table trying to get himself together after a long day of bright cheerful chatter to cover his worry about Talin/Hitari.

He might have found a way to stuff it all inside and just keep it in case things go south.

This is ALL speculation on my part.

- Diamond

[JaeFire]

Honestly, I hadn't thought about it before, but the comments about Anosanim hiding his feelings made me think that it could be possible. He was so proactive in the break up with Etaki and he kept saying how he was supporting Talin's decision to go back to Hitari. I don't think he ever said that he thought it should happen. And I remember him having a moment at the makeup table trying to get himself together after a long day of bright cheerful chatter to cover his worry about Talin/Hitari.

He might have found a way to stuff it all inside and just keep it in case things go south.

This is ALL speculation on my part.

- Diamond

And I LOVE IT--speculation that can't be proven untrue until it actually happens.  It's totally the best kind. 

(Also, I'm going to quote Rhia again because she doesn't feel like she can post here since she's not yet at 122, about Anosanim's moment at the makeup table putting himself together:  "Anosanim tries really hard to keep his doubts to himself, but Talin sees through him but appreciates the effort and goes along.")  Which is another example of how well Talin and Anosanim know each other, how close they are.

- Jae

[Diamond]

Anosanim and Talin are so intertwined that when they ascended Kudorin had red and orange mixed in together in his bedroom for them. The blue and purple were separate when Selorin and Orinakin ascended, but the red and orange couldn't be separated. Those two people are like different parts of one person. Like one guy with a split personality.

For them to hurt each other would be just short of literally stabbing themselves. I don't think there is a person, place, or thing, that could ever make them consider it.

- Diamond

[Rhia]

...I'm going to quote Rhia again because she doesn't feel like she can post here since she's not yet at 122...

Both laziness and me not being to 122 are at fault. I don't want to comment on things I haven't read, and I'm much lazier than Jae, and therefore don't want to go back and double-check things that I have read but don't remember perfectly. 

That said: I concur.

[JaeFire]

(EVERYTHING)

- Diamond

I, too, concur!

- Jae

[Diamond]

I just want to say, I don't want to dogpile on anyone with a million arguments against them. And really it's not against anyone, I'm just arguing the possible outcome of the story.

When you see a possibility of love you want to fight for it. I get that. I just think the love between Talin and Anosanim is stronger than anything else.

And, I'm having so much fun with this debate. Thanks Falconer for coming with the strong defense.

- Diamond
^{p.s. Rhia, I love your sig.}

[JaeFire]

I want to toss in my two cents and say thank you to Falconer too.  This debate's been really fun, and Rhia and I have been on the phone the whole time firing comments and arguments back and forth.  I've laughed a TON and generally had a great time.  I don't want anyone to feel ganged up on, either, because that's not what debate is really about, anyway.  It's been enjoyable, which is as it should be.

- Jae

[Falconer]

Wow, so many great posts! Just want to say that my reply is coming!! I can't now because I have 3 classes back to back this morning and I can't stay! 

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Everyone's talking about whether Anosanim wants to be with Hitari, how Talin might react to that, etc.

But what about Hitari?  Why do you think that Hitari would go with Anosanim and leave Talin?  Do you think that he genuinely would prefer to be with Anosanim?  Do you think that his commitment to Talin just isn't very strong?  Do you think that he's just interested in whoever's interested in him?

He came back to Talin, and he had to make a lot of personal compromises to do so.  What was his reason for that, and how does that fit into our view of his relationships with Talin and Anosanim?

-Matthew

[SilverMoon28]

You know, I've never even considered that point.

I think Hitary's interested in Anosanim in a brotherly way (with some... kissing privileges?).  Leaving Talin for Anosanim... I don't know how much sense that would make.  He'd be distrusted everywhere he went, and I highly doubt that anyone would allow him within a hundred feet of the palace.  He would lose everything he's worked so hard to gain again.

It would be too high a price for him to pay, even if he weren't in love with Talin, which I think he genuinely is.

Vani

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

even if he weren't in love with Talin, which I think he genuinely is

So there, maybe, is one of the major questions.

Is Hitari genuinely in love with Talin?

-Matthew

[SilverMoon28]

I'd like to think that he is.  He's been through a lot to get back where he is.  Could he really be doing this for personal reasons that have nothing to do with love?

Are you trying to prepare us for Talin's broken heart?

Vani

[/size]

[Diamond]

I think Hitary's interested in Anosanim in a brotherly way (with some... kissing privileges?).  Leaving Talin for Anosanim... I don't know how much sense that would make.  He'd be distrusted everywhere he went, and I highly doubt that anyone would allow him within a hundred feet of the palace.  He would lose everything he's worked so hard to gain again.

Vani

All of that should be true now. Hitari has already cheated on Talin and stolen from him. He should be distrusted everywhere he goes, and he shouldn't be allowed within a hundred feet of the palace. But he weaseled his way back in. He got back in Talin's good graces and he knew Talin would force the rest of the Siblings to accept his presence in the palace. So why wouldn't he think he could do it again? If he could seduce Anosanim into a full relationship, then he wouldn't have to do much more then sit back and let Anosanim take everyone to task for not accepting him.
 
I still don't trust him. He was a liar with a million faces and none of the brothers trusted him. Talin had a lot of trouble trusting him again. Personally, I think they should go with their first instinct.

At dinner with Selorin we learned that at least Hitari thinks he loves Talin, so that's not a point of contention for me. What I doubt is that he is even capable of loving Talin enough not to betray him again, given his background. I think his relationship with Talin is very beneficial to his career and his income. His first priority seems to be clearing his father's debt and supporting his sister's family. If he thought a relationship with Anosanim would be financially advantageous I think he would consider it. He might even dive right into it at the first sign of new money.

Look at the way he practically draped himself all over Bade as soon as he found out Bade was a prince. That man is still in there. 

Diamond.

[SilverMoon28]

All of that should be true now. Hitari has already cheated on Talin and stolen from him. He should be distrusted everywhere he goes, and he shouldn't be allowed within a hundred feet of the palace. But he weaseled his way back in. He got back in Talin's good graces and he knew Talin would force the rest of the Siblings to accept his presence in the palace. So why wouldn't he think he could do it again? If he could seduce Anosanim into a full relationship, then he wouldn't have to do much more then sit back and let Anosanim take everyone to task for not accepting him.
 
I still don't trust him. He was a liar with a million faces and none of the brothers trusted him. Talin had a lot of trouble trusting him again. Personally, I think they should go with their first instinct.

At dinner with Selorin we learned that at least Hitari thinks he loves Talin, so that's not a point of contention for me. What I doubt is that he is even capable of loving Talin enough not to betray him again, given his background. I think his relationship with Talin is very beneficial to his career and his income. His first priority seems to be clearing his father's debt and supporting his sister's family. If he thought a relationship with Anosanim would be financially advantageous I think he would consider it. He might even dive right into it at the first sign of new money.

Look at the way he practically draped himself all over Bade as soon as he found out Bade was a prince. That man is still in there. 

Diamond.

But but but but but!!!!!!

But!!



I know you make an excellent point.  It's indeed possible (all right, probable) that Hitari's only doing this for personal gain and for nothing else.  But he feels that he *is* in love with Talin, so that should count for something, shouldn't it?

Matthew!  Help!!!  I'm confused now!!  And I don't have time to re-read everything now!!! lol

And I maintain that Anosanim wouldn't hurt Talin that way.  He'd never accept Hitari and betray his twin!  hmph. 

[Falconer]

Okay. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

First off, I think we need to put the discussion back into perspective. This discussion started from when we were talking about Talin and Hitari, and the general consensus was that Hitari and Talin would not stay together forever (based on what Kudorin had said to Talin before he got back together with Hitari). So the premise of all of my arguments is that Talin/Hitari is not meant to happen.

Bearing that in my mind, I came to the conclusion that Hitari has been too much a prominent character to just disappear altogether from the series. I believe he’ll have a major role to play (that doesn’t involve being Talin’s soulmate). Then I brought forth the theory Anosanim/Hitari. It's just a theory though, just speculation.

Now to the responses:

JAE:

That's just it.  I agree with Diamond: there's nothing there to deny.  Even with Etaki, Anosanim said that "I liked Etaki because you liked him, and I smiled when I saw him because he made you smile" (Ch.12).  That same feeling translates to Hitari.  Sure, Hitari's gorgeous, and he and Anosanim flirt a lot, but never when they're alone.  It's always either in front of Talin or in front of the other brothers.  They never even consciously decided that, because it's just a game that they play, the way Rini makes out with Bade, the way Anosanim makes out with Bade.  If they wanted each other, there would have been at least one hint of the desire for a one-on-one clandestine meeting, but there hasn't been, because there's no deeper emotional attraction.

Again, I’m not saying that they “want” each other, like now. I’m saying that we’re seeing them slowly progressing towards something more than brotherly. So of course, they’re not going to go off and make out. I’m saying that we’re in the early stages of something tragically romantic. And as of now, I have to admit I don't see Hitari's interest in Anosanim, but that's good, it's going to create some good old angst.

The quote about Etaki: I think that Hitari/Anosanim originally was meant to be just like Anosanim/any one of Talin’s boyfriends, but that in this particular case, things might go differently.

Anosanim kisses all of Talin's boyfriends, yes. But I think this little habit will turn (is turning) against him because he'll find (finds) himself responding to Hitari. I think Anosanim gets dismissed easily as being superficial (in the sense that all he thinks about is Talin, clothes, make-up, shoes, work and stuff like that)... So people are expecting him to fall in love dramatically and to be very open, very vocal about it. But I think that Anosanim is misunderstood. (Kinda like the friend who's always cheerful and nobody realizes they're hurting, depressed, worried or that they're in love with someone...) Remember when he had problems at the construction site... if there hadn't been talks about the tension there, the casual observer (and arguably some of his brothers) wouldn't have known that Anosanim was reading the situation correctly, was hurting and was aware of what needed to be done. When Talin went to talk to him about it, Anosanim rapidly changed the subject. Talin didn't insist. Nobody really knows what goes on in Anosanim's mind. I'll even go as far as to say that not even Talin really knows all that goes on in Anosanim's head.

I actually think that Anosanim was thinking about the kiss. That's why he was touching his lips. The kiss affected him. Did Talin even fathom that? No. He assumed Anosanim was thinking about reapplying his lipstick.

Actually, I'm going to argue that it was simply a description: that Talin admired "the way he distractedly touched his mouth as if realizing that he needed to reapply his lipstick"--not that "Oh, he distractedly touched his mouth because he needed to reapply lipstick."  Talin picks up quite well that he's preoccupied, because Talin "[wonders] what he’d been thinking about in those steps from the bed to the door."

Well, most probably Anosanim did need to reapply lipstick after that kiss, so in a sense it *is* a description. But see further down, Talin wonders if he’s thinking about shoes, the stadium, etc. and I’m saying that Anosanim was in fact not thinking about shoes or the stadium or whatever, but about the kiss. Lips-->reapply lipstick-->kiss. That’s my logic.

And about Talin not being able to talk to Anosanim about his workers because Anosanim kept changing the subject?  That wasn't because Talin didn't understand Anosanim, or notice what hell he was going through.  I don't believe that Talin's "not [insisting]" means that he doesn't "really [know] what goes on in Anosanim's mind."  That was Talin ultimately respecting Anosanim's space, and his abilities as a leader to eventually make a decision about his workers.  He knew all along what Anosanim was going through.  Maybe, like you said, people have a tendency to dismiss Anosanim as superficial, but Talin never has.  He would notice if Anosanim were falling in love with Hitari.

[examples]

That argument was meant to demonstrate that the brothers were not open to each other about everything. They don't always know what the other one is thinking about or wants. Remember when Anosanim found out that Talin was painting Xio Voh? Well Talin didn’t want him to talk about it to other people, and Anosanim almost did (he was cut off by Talin). So, no, the twins don’t read each other’s minds. They can be wrong about some stuff the other is feeling, and this may well be the case in Chapter 122.

During the kiss, Talin realized that they were kissing for a long time, but he didn't think much of it... when Hitari got hard "matter-of-factly", Talin didn't think much of it. If he had paid more attention, perhaps he would have a better idea of what Anosanim was thinking about... I can see Anosanim falling in love slowly, quietly. And really, a "tragically impossible" love is just the thing to satisfy his romantic mind! 

I think you're seriously underestimating Talin's understanding (and love) for Anosanim.  He and Anosanim have been described not "[needing] messages or codes or secret systems" because "they already share a brain" (Ch.107).

See my point about the Xio Voh sketches above. Yes, people say they share a brain because they’re so close but they don’t really do. Their connection is not infallible.

Talin always pays attention to Anosanim, has always paid attention to Anosanim, and the reason I think he doesn't think much of Hitari getting hard is because he understands that a natural physical response of arousal is not an indicator of deeper emotional attachment.  If it is, then Bade has A LOT to answer to Orinakin for, because it means he's had A LOT of emotional attachments.  Yes, Hitari and Anosanim are good friends, but that doesn't denote love.  A kiss doesn't mean romantic love.  Sure, it may mean lust, but this is Orina Anoris.  People have lustsex all the time.  I don't think Anosanim could hide anything from Talin if his life depended on it, never mind a deep and repressed attraction for Hitari.  Why?  Because Anosanim couldn't even hide his conflicted, deep, repressed attraction to Ritek!  (Which Talin noticed and fixed for him.)

Well, they’re different people and what’s true for Bade isn’t necessarily true for Anosanim. For the rest: Yes, you are right! A kiss doesn’t mean anything. Anosanim kissed Bade and it didn’t mean any romantic attachment. What makes the Anosanim/Hitari kisses (or kiss if we’re talking about Chapter 122) is the phrasing, the tone, the mood. Little things. I’m not basing my theory on the kisses proper, but on the descriptions of these kisses. Little things. (see example below) So I agree with your point, and I don't think it contradicts mine.

Amen to that!!

If you guys are talking about this:
(Ch.122) "Paying attention again, Talin watched Anosanim blush prettily and lick his lips."

I have to put forth that blushing after a kiss doesn't necessarily denote guilt--it could just be sex flush.  Getting hot because it feels just that good, physically.  And he seems to lick his lips from satisfaction, to show that he enjoyed the kiss, which he doesn't hide from Talin at all.  There's no description of guilt other than the mere existence of a blush, which doesn't necessarily mean guilt.  If that's the kind of evidence being presented, I'd like to counter with:

(Ch.76)  “Oh, Bade.”  Cheeks red, eyes bright, lip gloss definitely mussed, Anosanim looked somewhat, um, ravished.  Hand flying to his throat, he blinked, thick lashes fluttering prettily.

So, using the logic that a blush means guilt because of unacknowledged emotional longings, I suppose we should take Anosanim's reaction to making out with Bade near the balloons as a deep, hungry, suppressed, forbidden desire to be loved and ravished by his brother's husband?

Well, I can’t prove my points logically and point-by-point because it’s based on interpretation, not on fact. So logic here doesn’t help. The facts don’t tell us anything. What you can read behind the words can tell you something. What makes that blush stand out to me, is how Anosanim gave what was clearly an excuse to get out of the room. Followed by the way he was touching his lips. These make me *interpret* the blush as guilt (or the realization that kissing Hitari may well be different from kissing Talin’s other boyfriends, we don’t know).


DIAMOND:

Here's my theory on Lo Hitari Samora.

[…]
I think he still has plenty of resentment and skepticism about Hitari and he's watching closely.

Wow, I'd never thought of that...  Well, I personally don’t think that’s the case, but things like that can’t be *proven*, so I guess we’ll see.

And by the way, what about Ritek? Anosanim is falling in love this very moment. WITH SOMEONE ELSE! The guy he just had sex with the day before yesterday. The man couldn't even sleep because all he could think about was Ritek. He repaired everything at Satatunin  to destract himself from thinking about Ritek. And if you want attraction:

He was very attracted to Ritek, sexually, and he was terribly aroused by the thought of Ritek’s naked body settling heavily between his thighs.  He thought that Ritek might be just the kind of lover he desired, experienced enough to handle him, considerate enough to please him, and physically powerful enough to sate him.[117.9]

*Lover*. Not boyfriend. Remember, Anosanim is looking for a boyfriend not a lover. Lover doesn’t necessarily involve romantic attachment. Notice the words he uses: please, sate. These don’t suggest that he’s falling in love at all. The belas also both please and sate him.

And this sounds more like a man falling in love or lust than a blush and an unseen erection:

I adore romance.  And nothing turns me on more than a romantic man.”  Anosanim kissed him, slowly, running his fingers through Ritek’s thick, luscious hair, enjoying the feel of their warm, naked bodies intertwined, as desire gradually built anew.  Ritek touched him, caressed him, kissed him everywhere.  Ever responsive to the sounds of his pleasure, Ritek was a fast learner, and would soon turn budding desire into roaring passion.  The erotic delights of Ritek’s sexual mastery made Anosanim reconsider letting him leave.[117.13]

Again, I don’t see the falling in love here. Yes, nothing turns him more than a romantic man, but what arouses him here is the way Ritek *touches* him. He’s turned on, but not because of the romance.

Anosanim is intelligent (technically a genius), he's literally one of the most powerful men in the country, he's a child of the gods, he is stunningly handsome/beautiful, he is impeccably dressed every day, he's sweet, he's caring, he'd give you the world.  Every one who likes men in Orina Anoris would want to be with him. Why would he need break his own twin's heart to find love? Even if they got together after Talin's breakup, why should Talin have to suffer watching them together, seeing his exact body with orange hair be happy with the man who tore his heart apart twice?

His intelligence, his status, his beauty etc. have *nothing* to do with whom he’s going to fall in love with. He can’t choose whom it’s going to be. He can’t decide that. The tension between not wanting to hurt Talin and his love (or romantic attachment, whatever) is precisely the angst I’ll be looking forward to. I think I mentioned that, but I’m not sure, but the theory is that Talin/Hitari is going to be over eventually, so the dynamics might be different. He may well not need to worry about breaking Talin’s heart (in fact I think that Talin is going to encourage it but let me not go to far down the speculation line).

This is ALL speculation on my part.

- Diamond

Everything here is speculation, lol. But it's lots of fun!

I want to toss in my two cents and say thank you to Falconer too.  This debate's been really fun, and Rhia and I have been on the phone the whole time firing comments and arguments back and forth.  I've laughed a TON and generally had a great time.  I don't want anyone to feel ganged up on, either, because that's not what debate is really about, anyway.  It's been enjoyable, which is as it should be.

- Jae

This has been incredibly enjoyable to me as well!! Thank you guys! It makes me even more excited about Talin's and Anosanim's books. Then we'll find out for sure what's going to happen. Ideally I would prefer Hitari and Talin happily ever after but it seems that it's not very likely...

MATTHEW:

Everyone's talking about whether Anosanim wants to be with Hitari, how Talin might react to that, etc.

But what about Hitari?  Why do you think that Hitari would go with Anosanim and leave Talin?  Do you think that he genuinely would prefer to be with Anosanim?  Do you think that his commitment to Talin just isn't very strong?  Do you think that he's just interested in whoever's interested in him?

He came back to Talin, and he had to make a lot of personal compromises to do so.  What was his reason for that, and how does that fit into our view of his relationships with Talin and Anosanim?

-Matthew

even if he weren't in love with Talin, which I think he genuinely is

So there, maybe, is one of the major questions.

Is Hitari genuinely in love with Talin?

-Matthew

You know, I do believe that Hitari is genuinely in love with Talin. This doesn’t come into play in my A/H theory, but it does influence its premise (which is T/H will not be happily ever after). I don’t see Hitari responding to Anosanim at all. I can see how Anosanim is responding to him, but not the other way around. So I think he’s genuinely in love with Talin and isn’t even considering Anosanim as a potential lover (for him the kisses are just displays of brotherly affection, nothing more. And the sexual responses are natural responses. He doesn’t read more into that). As Matthew mentioned, he's had to make great sacrifices for his relationship with Talin and I think he’s honest and that his intentions are selfless and out of love. Which raises the sempiternal question: Is that the real deal? The happy ever-after deal?  Personally, if it's not the real deal, I want them to part amiably at least. 

[SilverMoon28]

Falconer - I'd reply but..... it would take me an hour to read all of that!!    lmao.  Besides, I got totally lost between the quotes and what you were trying to say.

I do agree though, that Hitari's been a major character in connection with Talin, so it's very possible that he'll still feature in the series.

*skipping over the 10,000 posts about Hitari and Anosanim not ending up together*

That begs the question: if he doesn't end up with another sibling (I don't think he will), what will he do?

Vani

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Great discussion!

I don’t see Hitari responding to Anosanim at all. I can see how Anosanim is responding to him, but not the other way around. So I think he’s genuinely in love with Talin and isn’t even considering Anosanim as a potential lover (for him the kisses are just displays of brotherly affection, nothing more. And the sexual responses are natural responses. He doesn’t read more into that).

This has great dramatic potential.

-Matthew

[Diamond]

First of all, I love the fact that you are arguing a point that you don't necessarily believe with great arguments. That makes you an awesome debater.  

So the premise of all of my arguments is that Talin/Hitari is not meant to happen.

I agree with that.

I’m not basing my theory on the kisses proper, but on the descriptions of these kisses. Little things. (see example below) So I agree with your point, and I don't think it contradicts mine.

I like the way you put that. And I see what you mean about the distinction.

Again, I don’t see the falling in love here. Yes, nothing turns him more than a romantic man, but what arouses him here is the way Ritek *touches* him. He’s turned on, but not because of the romance.

I don't think we have overt evidence that Anosanim is clearly and plainly in love with Ritek. But he is moving in a more favorable direction. And while their actual on screen interactions spoke more about lust than love, backed up by the fact that Anosanim couldn't stop thinking about Ritek and couldn't get to sleep shows us that he's emotionally affected by their time together.  He's even daydreaming about shopping with him. For Anosanim, that's quality time.

I don't honestly think Anosanim is actively plotting against Hitari. It just seems more likely than dating Hitari to me, given the super twin bond and Hitari's past.

...I came to the conclusion that Hitari has been too much a prominent character to just disappear altogether from the series. I believe he’ll have a major role to play (that doesn’t involve being Talin’s soulmate). Then I brought forth the theory Anosanim/Hitari.

I agree that they won't end up together. So where does that leave Hitari? He might get a few side stories over the years or something if he's not with anyone in the series.

He could die in a fiery carriage accident careening out of control and flying over a cliff.

Wait, this is MHT.

He could be put out to pasture with Desin's old horses?

He'll probably tuck away in a cozy little cottage somewhere with a new boyfriend, hermiting himself away from the glaring lights of the Anorian fashion industry. Settling down to become a beautiful, talented homebody.
 

- Diamond

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Why, Diamond, why do you despise Hitari?

-Matthew

[Diamond]

You're right, Matthew. Maybe Anosanim isn't harboring anger and resentment, it's more likely that I am.  

I hate him because he hurt Talin in several ways. I hate him for everything he said at dinner with Talin when he said the country was missing out getting Talin and not Anosanim for an artist. I hate him for daring to be so disrespectful to a child of the gods and his own prince. I hate him for even speaking to Bade during and after the festival. I hate him because I think he's only infusing some of his real feelings in with his deceit to make it seem more true.  

I think that Talin dumped him because he's a user and he's too much of a con man to resist the lure of using the influence of the Seven Siblings to his advantage again. Even if he's on the straight and narrow now, I don't think that he, personally, has the moral fortitude to live in the palace and be Talin's husband without trying to get something out of it.  

He might be okay with the current situation but if Talin gives him a permanent, irrefutable commitment, like marriage the temptation will be too great and he won't be able to keep his hands out of the cookie jar.

  Lo Samora will forever be on my bad side.  

- Diamond

[SilverMoon28]

I hate him because he hurt Talin in several ways. I hate him for everything he said at dinner with Talin when he said the country was missing out getting Talin and not Anosanim for an artist. I hate him for daring to be so disrespectful to a child of the gods and his own prince. I hate him for even speaking to Bade during and after the festival. I hate him because I think he's only infusing some of his real feelings in with his deceit to make it seem more true.  

- Diamond

Ok, you're going to make me dislike Hitari again.  I hated him for what he said to Talin about Anosanim being a better artist.  It's true that he had absolutely no right to say that to him because they were born in that order for a reason, and Talin was born to be the Royal Artist.

Okay, now I have to rethink about it all.

Hmph.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

You're right, Matthew.

That's what I like to hear!

I hate him because I think he's only infusing some of his real feelings in with his deceit to make it seem more true.

Okay, that would just make him evil.

I think that Talin dumped him because he's a user and he's too much of a con man to resist the lure of using the influence of the Seven Siblings to his advantage again.

That seems to be the main issue here.  Is Hitari a con man at heart?  Is he just like his father?  In the good versus evil fight for Hitari's soul, who will win?

-Matthew

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I hated him for what he said to Talin about Anosanim being a better artist.

But he said it deliberately for effect, when they'd barely seen each other, when he wasn't sure of his place and didn't know what Talin was up to.  It's not like he said it in a sincere tone while they were together.  We've seen no evidence whatsoever that he honestly believes that Talin's not fit to be the royal artist.

-Matthew

[TaraAngelX]

Woah Woah Woah. It took me almost an hour and a half to read this thread! I should never go away for a weekend again!

That being said here are my two cents on the subject:

I still don't think that Hitari and Talin are going to be together - AND - until about an hour and a half ago I didn't even contemplate the idea of Hitari/Anosanim... though now I kind of do... which gives me a headache  (Thanks Falconer!)

Hitari has become a major character and I agree, he can't just slip off into the night.
I also agree that Anosanim would sooner cut off his hands than hurt Talin.

But there are some things that are slightly suspicious. Like when Anosanim went to get Hitari during the festival - Kudorin was obviously upset by that. I don't know if upset is the word but... it effected him. That always ALWAYS struck me as weird. Why would Kudorin be upset? Especially knowing how devoted Hitari would become?

There is also the point that it was Anosanim who brought Hitari back to Talin. There is a sort of unwindable thread between the three of them. I do not know for sure whether that thread is going to lead to Hitari/Anosanim, but it isn't going to go away.

As for Retik... he's fluff in comparison to Hitari and Talin. Anosanim isn't going to fall in love with him. Well, at least that is my opinion.

There is always the option of Talin/Hitari/Anosanim. As Rini pointed out (especially since Matthew swore off incest) when Selorin had sex with those brothers, the brothers aren't doing anything with each other - they are just having sex with the same person.  Not to mention Talin and Anosanim ARE like one person. Maybe they are going to be... different... when it comes to who they choose to stay with. Then again maybe not.

As for Hitari I do think that Hitari loves Talin as much as he can love someone. I don't think that extends to how much Talin loves Hitari, but I think its pretty close. And as of right now I don't think that He'd just jump out of Talin's bed and into Anosanim's.

I guess... that this entire post leads up to: There are a lot of possibilities, a lot of them sad, a couple bad, and a very few happy. Though I think it's pretty impossible, I am going to start shipping Talin/Hitari/Anosanim. It's the happiest solution to all of this!

~TaraAngelX

[Falconer]

Falconer, you're awesome.

You're right, Matthew. Maybe Anosanim isn't harboring anger and resentment, it's more likely that I am.  [*hating*]  - Diamond

I thought it was agreed on that Hitari was going through a rough time, and had difficulty opening up and being himself and honest with Talin because of his past/the way he was brought up? That said, I think the change in him occurred rather suddenly. So I definitely think we don’t have the whole story there about why he was being such a bitch to Talin when he apparently really loved him (as he's been demonstrating lately).

That seems to be the main issue here.  Is Hitari a con man at heart?  Is he just like his father?  In the good versus evil fight for Hitari's soul, who will win? -Matthew

I think there’s something we don’t know about Hitari that explains his former behavior, or that explains his current behavior (you never know). While I don’t see him taking advantage directly of Talin, he does ride on the wave of Talin’s position. His relationship with Talin is what’s getting him the high-end jobs and exposure right now. So in a sense, he’s still using Talin, but I just don't know! There's an unknown in the equation. Bah, I just want them together happily ever after. If not, then I want Hitari/Anosanim.

But he said it deliberately for effect, when they'd barely seen each other, when he wasn't sure of his place and didn't know what Talin was up to.  It's not like he said it in a sincere tone while they were together.  We've seen no evidence whatsoever that he honestly believes that Talin's not fit to be the royal artist. -Matthew

I agree. And when he was telling him awful things at the dinner with Selorin, Selorin revealed all of them to be lies. Though the question remains: Why was he doing this?! 

Like when Anosanim went to get Hitari during the festival - Kudorin was obviously upset by that. I don't know if upset is the word but... it effected him. That always ALWAYS struck me as weird. Why would Kudorin be upset? Especially knowing how devoted Hitari would become?

That’s a really good point. I had never considered it. Kudorin knows the future, but not how the persons are going to get there. Still he sees one path as better than another, so maybe he didn’t like how Anosanim was pushing Talin and Hitari together? Maybe he wanted Talin to be upset with Hitari for not showing up? What would be the point though? 

There is always the option of Talin/Hitari/Anosanim. […] Though I think it's pretty impossible, I am going to start shipping Talin/Hitari/Anosanim. It's the happiest solution to all of this! ~TaraAngelX

Blasphemy!  Sorry, I’m really not into threesomes in my stories. Yes I know there’s plenty of that in ITL, but it’s sex and nothing more. For the dynamics between Talin, Hitari and Anosanim to be resolved like that… Nuh-uh.   

PS: Is there a way we could merge this thread with Hitari's thread?  That's where these discussions really belong...

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I've broken the thread and moved the Hitari discussion here.  Sorry for anyone looking for the old thread and confused by the jump.

-Matthew

[TaraAngelX]

Blasphemy!  Sorry, I’m really not into threesomes in my stories. Yes I know there’s plenty of that in ITL, but it’s sex and nothing more. For the dynamics between Talin, Hitari and Anosanim to be resolved like that… Nuh-uh.   

  No threesomes?!?!?!  Omgosh! I just... can't process... that thought... 

Matthew I think you have warped my fragile mind! There must always be threesomes, somewhere! The Drewsome is so so so adorable I don't know why anyone wouldn't like them.

I agree that the option of Talin/Hitari/Anosanim is unlikely, but I think it could work. Hypothetically speaking... you know if the thing between Anosanim and Amarito don't work out.

SHHH!  Don't kill my dream... Anosanim/Amarito for the Brother/Bela Pairing! 

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I’m really not into threesomes in my stories.

I see that we have a fundamental difference of opinion.  Is this a deeply held belief about the nature of committed relationships, or have you just not read one that works for you?

Anosanim/Amarito for the Brother/Bela Pairing!

Y'all are starting to sell me on this one.

-Matthew

[Falconer]

There must always be threesomes, somewhere!

I’m really not into threesomes in my stories.

I see that we have a fundamental difference of opinion.  Is this a deeply held belief about the nature of committed relationships, or have you just not read one that works for you?

-Matthew

It is, as you put it, very much a deeply held belief about the nature of committed relationships. But not just committed relationships. Relationships in general (human nature in general). (I have never tried to put this into words before because it's too much of an instinct, a feeling, to try to explain logically, but I'll try).

To make things clearer, I'd like to make a distinction between threesomes and menage. Let's say that threesome is just about the sex (like there has been so far in ITL). I can handle that one, because there's no romantic attachment and I can sit down and enjoy it just for the hot sex (although I only fully enjoy it when it's between single people--not a couple + someone else. I explain why further down).

Menage is somewhat similar to what TaraAngelX proposed with Talin, Anosanim and Hitari. It involves romantic attachment between 3 people. This is a no-no for me, because while I believe it's possible to love more than 1 person, I don't think it's possible for 3 people to be in love with each other (equally).    There's always going to be one that's left out at some level, at some point, in some aspect or at a certain moment in time/over time. And my romantic heart can't handle that.  It's like the antithesis of romance for me. Threesome is (about) sharing, and romance is very much about not sharing, about being two, about being together, withdrawing from the world into the relationship. (That's where the term "exclusive" comes from I think--you "exclude" other people, it's just the two of you).

There's more to it, of course, but this post is already getting kinda long. So yeah. To sum up, I don't like it because I like my romance to be just between 2 persons. 

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I believe that a relationship between three people can work.  How well it works in real life depends on the people; how well it works in fiction depends on how it's written.  I written a three-person relationship before, and one of the projects I'm working on now involves one.

None of the books in ITL will be about a three-person relationship.  Even Kudorin doesn't have a three-person relationship, so much as two overlapping marriages.

-Matthew

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I don't think it's possible for 3 people to be in love with each other (equally).    There's always going to be one that's left out at some level, at some point, in some aspect or at a certain moment in time/over time.

But I think that being "left out" doesn't have to be a concern, depending on the people involved, and how flexible and mature they are.  And I believe that three people can be in love with each other.

Edited to add:

I think that finding someone to be with romantically is about finding someone who fits you, who complements your strengths and buoys up your weaknesses and provides you with what you need (emotionally, sexually, etc.).

And I think that it only makes sense that sometimes, one person alone can't supply all of that.  Sometimes you have such disparate needs that it takes two people.  And then it's just about working things out in a way that suits everyone, so that they get what they need from you and from each other.  Of course there will be jealousies and slights and misunderstandings, but you get that in a two-person relationship, anyway.

-Matthew

[Falconer]

None of the books in ITL will be about a three-person relationship.

Can't tell you how relieved that makes me!!

But I think that being "left out" doesn't have to be a concern, depending on the people involved, and how flexible and mature they are. 

Being "left out" means that at some point, we have a couple and someone else who is just tagging along. And then, you just reshuffle the cards. So all three of them have to be flexible and mature consistently (meaning the cards get reshuffled regularly: A/B, then A/C, then B/C whatever, and A, B and C are all fine with it), and how likely is that when we're talking about a relationship (meaning long-term)? What if A likes to hang out more with B and C finds himself being "left out" more often than not? What if C really doesn't like a certain aspect of B's personality? Then, instead of the frustration building up and exploding, or C facing B with it, we have C just hanging out with A more. They'd be building a relationship that excludes B. At some point, they'll all have different (perhaps even independent) relationships with each other. I dunno, I don't see it working. 

And I believe that three people can be in love with each other.

You mean A is in love with both B and C and B is in love with both A and C and C is in love with both A and B and they all have a fulfilling relationship together? Oh well, I don't... (in fiction I suppose it can be made to work, but how realistic that would be... ) I guess it's a matter of opinion though.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I was editing my comment while you posted yours.

You mean A is in love with both B and C and B is in love with both A and C and C is in love with both A and B and they all have a fulfilling relationship together?

Isn't that what a three-person relationship is?

-Matthew

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Okay, to clarify: of course not all three-person relationships are defined that way, but that IS what I've been talking about.

I guess it's good to be clear on that before we keep going.

-Matthew

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Being "left out" means that at some point, we have a couple and someone else who is just tagging along.

At which point, it's important to stop and work that out, not let it continue.  Every good relationship needs to be worked on.

What if A likes to hang out more with B and C finds himself being "left out" more often than not? What if C really doesn't like a certain aspect of B's personality?

Then they shouldn't be in a relationship together.  Or they should work on their relationship more, to strengthen it.

They'd be building a relationship that excludes B. At some point, they'll all have different (perhaps even independent) relationships with each other. I dunno, I don't see it working.

No, that wouldn't work.  You just described a relationship falling apart.

-Matthew

[Falconer]

At which point, it's important to stop and work that out, not let it continue.  Every good relationship needs to be worked on.

Then they shouldn't be in a relationship together.  Or they should work on their relationship more, to strengthen it.

Where's the incentive though? They'll all have to stop and realize that and just decide to work it out? This scenario demands so much out of the 3, I think you're overestimating their insight and 'desire to work it out'. The being "left-out" can be so subtle... It's not just 2 of them going to the restaurant and leaving out the other, it's about what they talk about, their goals, the intricacies of their sex life... I think it's just too easy for 2 of them to gang up or to bond more.
Perhaps if C didn't have A to hang out with (or be close to) as an option, he would learn to accept B or to work things out with B... with 3 of you, it's easy to just let it go, ignore it, leave it out, which weakens the relationship and can potentially lead to division.

No, that wouldn't work.  You just described a relationship falling apart.

I guess that's my point. Threesomes will eventually become twosomes... The conditions required to make a 3-person relationship work are not very realistic I think, it's too complicated, it has to be literally orchestrated. I don't see it as long lasting at all. There can *be* 3-person relationships of course, but not the equal partnership I believe we're talking about.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Where's the incentive though? They'll all have to stop and realize that and just decide to work it out? This scenario demands so much out of the 3, I think you're overestimating their insight and 'desire to work it out'.

It depends on how committed they are to the relationship, and how mature they are.  Like I said, relationships take work and effort, even between 2 people.

The being "left-out" can be so subtle... It's not just 2 of them going to the restaurant and leaving out the other, it's about what they talk about, their goals, the intricacies of their sex life...

And when you're in a relationship with someone, you're sensitive to those things.  So you'll notice, and then it's up to you to speak up, and it's up to the three of you to work it out.

-Matthew

[Falconer]

It depends on how committed they are to the relationship, and how mature they are.  Like I said, relationships take work and effort, even between 2 people.

And when you're in a relationship with someone, you're sensitive to those things.  So you'll notice, and then it's up to you to speak up, and it's up to the three of you to work it out.

-Matthew

  It seems you have more faith in people than I... Can we agree to disagree?

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

It seems you have more faith in people than I...

That really seems to be what it comes down to.  But I think that I understand your view, and you understand mine.  Time to hug it out and move on!

 

-Matthew

[Falconer]

Time to hug it out and move on!

 

-Matthew

 Alright!   


Now, since Matthew has ruled out 3-person relationships for the siblings, Hitari/Anosanim/Talin is not an option, so I suppose we're back to square one with these 3?

[TaraAngelX]

Now, since Matthew has ruled out 3-person relationships for the siblings, Hitari/Anosanim/Talin is not an option, so I suppose we're back to square one with these 3?

Looks like it! I have to say I would have preferred it not come down to Hitari/Anosanim/Talin. I am relieved it won't come to that! Especially since I have my sights set on Anosanim/Amarito mmmmmm...

Plus, I don't feel, the way I set up their relationship given that they were brothers, would be satisfactory for any party involved. Well, maybe for Hitari because he gets all the benefits - BUT they are princes. They deserve to be happy. (Well, everyone deserves to be happy, especially in Orina Anoris)

Also...

Anosanim/Amarito for the Brother/Bela Pairing!

Y'all are starting to sell me on this one.

-Matthew

Matthew!  You keep my dream alive... even if I am pretty sure you are teasing me!

[Sunset]

I love the idea of Anosanim and Amarito, but as a side plot:  Amarito suffering from unrequited love, for example. 

After the scenes at Satatunin with Talin and Hitari talking about Ritek displaying familiar symptoms of someone being in love with Anosanim, I've started thinking that Anosanim's book will feature lots of potential chaos with guys admitting they have been in love with him from afar.  He will be so confused, because he loves romance, but will suddenly end up with more than he can handle...