T'rin

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

So, what's up with T'rin?

[SilverMoon28]

What's up with T'rin?  I don't know... I think he's great.

I can understand why he doesn't want Rini to go to the plains because he's afraid that Rini will be uncomfortable.  It's not because he doesn't want Rini to help r because he thinks that Rini's a spoiled brat, but rather because feels that, as a prince, Rini deserves better.  He was still a dummy (yes, a dummmy  ) for not seeing that Rini only cares about other people's well-being.

But T'rin is in love with Rini   And that is awesome.

Vani

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

T'rin is in love with Rini

What do you know that I don't?

-Matthew

[SilverMoon28]

I don't think T'rin gets tattoos for any old reason.  As far as I understand, they're for very specific and special occasions: wars, battles, etc... and... Rini.  The fact that he's tattooed Rini's name on his body and that he's so worried about Rini being 'uncomfortable' or hurt on the plains well... to me, that shows love.

But that's just my opinion.

Besides, people can't help but love Rini.  At least I can't.  Maybe I'm biased, what do you think?

Vani

[lelehtidazzio]

I don't think T'rin gets tattoos for any old reason.  As far as I understand, they're for very specific and special occasions: wars, battles, etc... and... Rini.  The fact that he's tattooed Rini's name on his body and that he's so worried about Rini being 'uncomfortable' or hurt on the plains well... to me, that shows love.

But that's just my opinion.

Besides, people can't help but love Rini.  At least I can't.  Maybe I'm biased, what do you think?

Vani

Yes, I agree.  T'rin is too serious a guy to tattoo someone's name on his body.  I think that he loves Rini as well, but feels that Rini is too...good (for lack of a better word) to deal with the hard life of the plains and the Kela.

[LilacMajesty]

I don't think that T'rin thinks Rini is too good, he just doesn't think that Rini should have any hardships in his life at all.  He believes that Rini deserves to be bathed in pearls and sleep on silk and velvet.

[SilverMoon28]

I personally happen to agree with this idea lol.

But T'rin's got to let Bade experience life for himself.  He'll never be able to help unless he's out there living through what other people are living through, even if it's not something fun... you know?

Vani

[LilacMajesty]

T'rin has to let WHO experience life for himself?

[SilverMoon28]

LMFAO!!!

RINI**  RINI*** NOT BADE!

My bad!

Where the heck was my mind?

Vani

[SilverMoon28]

Bade's with Orinakin and it's going to stay that way forever and ever and ever.

And Rini + T'rin = 

Vani

[LDoza]

I don't think that T'rin thinks Rini is too good, he just doesn't think that Rini should have any hardships in his life at all.  He believes that Rini deserves to be bathed in pearls and sleep on silk and velvet.

Yes, and he is one to know how dangerous the plains are, even if Rini is 'protected'.  But T'rin is SO HONEST, with
himself about loving Rini...  I MEAN look at that tatoo and what it means in his culture!!

[LilacMajesty]

That tattoo  makes me melt everytime I read about it.

[SilverMoon28]

That tattoo  makes me melt everytime I read about it.

Yes, yes, yes!  T'rin and Rini will end up married and will have lots and lots of children!

I mean sex...

Be quiet, it's almost midnight. 

Vani

[LilacMajesty]

But there would be children.  Remember, T'rin can have multiple spouses - male and female.

[SilverMoon28]

I mean Rini and T'rin's love kids!

Okay, no I didn't.  But still :p

Now you're making me think of what the two of them would be like as parents...

Interesting concept...

[LilacMajesty]

T'rin would have to be the disciplinarian, because its a given that Rini would spoil them rotten.

[SilverMoon28]

My mind just went to S & M... lmao

No, don't try to get me to elaborate on that!

Vani

[anaskee]

My mind just went to S & M... lmao

No, don't try to get me to elaborate on that!

Vani

But I want you to! 

Okay, I will.  I'm not sure if T'rin would be into that.  He's too straightforward about sex, yeah?  And I think he would be horrified to even think about marking Rini at all.  So there.  Don't mind me folks.  Seeing the word S&M or BDSM gives me a brain fart. 

I understand why T'rin doesn't want Rini on the plains, as Kudorin explained to Rini, but I think it will be great for their relationship with Rini there.  Rini needs to prove to T'rin and to himself that yes, he can live on the plains, go through hardship and be okay with it.  And  T'rin has to realize that Rini is not a fragile person to be put on a pedestal, but an equal he can share his difficulties, his triumphs, and his life with. Then their relationship will be the stronger for it.

[SilverMoon28]

nobody can mark Rini.  Remember Kudorin's anger when someone went to far and did so?

But I do think he'd enjoy tying him up 

[anaskee]

nobody can mark Rini.  Remember Kudorin's anger when someone went to far and did so?

Yeah, I remembered that.

But I do think he'd enjoy tying him up 

I can visualize that happening

[LilacMajesty]

I don't know why, but I've always pictured T'rin as looking more Native American.

[Magical_Jen]

I don't know why, but I've always pictured T'rin as looking more Native American.

Yeah I can see how he could be but one of the reasons that lead me not to believe that he would not be Native American is that when Orinakin first describe T'rin he says he has a shaved skull. I know that we should not try to impose "earthy ideology" in the ITL universe but that description really does limit the type of tribes that T'rin could come from. While there are cases where Native American warriors would shave the frontal forelock of their heads as a sign of courage, for the most part hair especially keeping long hair is an important part of Native American culture. Moreover, in some Native American tribes to have, a shaved or scalped head is a sign of defeat, dishonor or disgrace; it is something done to certain enemies after a battle. Where as baldness in say and African tribe is typical.  While T'rin's mannerism and dress would make it seem like he could be apart of either tribes. The way that Matthew had described the environment of the Plains and the way society works in Kela, it remained me many of the African cultures I read about in my tribal history course. Meh, I can be wrong though.

[LilacMajesty]

No where does Matthew say that T'rin has dark skin.

[Magical_Jen]

No where does Matthew say that T'rin has dark skin.

I don't recall T'rin being described with dark skin colour.  But damn, those guys are sure great to look at.  Yummy. 

He also doesn't say that he doesn't have dark skin. Actually when ever anyone talks about T'rins physical appearance they always refer too his muscle,  histattoos, the taut smoothness  of his skin or wonder at his lack of hair. His skin complexion is never mentioned, so I guess we all can keep picturing T'rin as we do.

[JaeFire]

I know that we should not try to impose "earthy ideology" in the ITL universe but that description really does limit the type of tribes that T'rin could come from.

I won't reveal what I think T'rin looks like, because it has no bearing on what I'm going to say: Like you said, we shouldn't impose "earthy ideology" in the ITL universe.  With that as a given, it should then be understood that T'rin's "description" does not limit the type of tribes T'rin comes from at all--because we shouldn't be seeing him as coming from any tribes from the real world anyway, Native American or African.  It's not fair to limit ITL to the strictures and limitations of the real world.  This is a fantasy series, and more importantly, a literary work.

Sure, things in ITL may remind us of certain cultures, but I very much believe that we should never, ever impose the mores, practices, and physical descriptions of those cultures onto ITL.  It limits the scope of Matthew's work, and it leads to assumptions that have no basis in the text.  Such imposition is not only unfair to Matthew's work, to the characters and the cultures, but it often lends itself to inaccurate literary interpretation.

- Jae

[Magical_Jen]

Mm I knew I was going to get into trouble when I used the word “limits”. It was not my intention to limit the scope of Matthew work or trivialize the intricacies of  ITL. 

However, part of this discussion consisted of people offering different images of what they felt that T’rin could possible look like.  Because there was  such a differences between the pictures I posted to the others that were offered, I thought that it would  be interesting  to offer and explanation as to what in the text lead me to visualize  T’rin in the way that I did.  I should have made this clearer when I prefaced my explanation by saying, “we shouldn’t impose ‘earthy ideology’ in the ITL universe”.  What I meant is,  if I could use what we know to be true about T’rin, and take it out of the context of  ITL Universe and apply it to what I know to be true of some civilizations in our would  then these are some of the assumptions that  I would make. 

Yes, I realize that the purpose of these boards it that we would engage only with the text and that ideally we would only uses the literature to fuel our discussions, questions and out conclusions we make.  However in cases where we haven’t received all the information or details about characters there are going to be times when we might uses information based on “earthly ideology” that will as you said lead to inaccurate literary interpretation.  However, I thought we could embrace these mistakes, isn’t the purpose of out discussion to expose and explore all the facts and all hypothetical assumptions.
Eighty-five members from all over the globe have or soon will participate in the discussion, and each will have will come with their experience and knowledge will likely seep into the discussion we see here. We still have to wait for six more books  and the only one  us that has the answers  is Matthew,  if we begin to censor  our discussion because we may risk the change of  inaccurate literary interpretation  then these boards are going to get really tired  very soon.

That being said, Matthew if my remarks have managed to case any offences, that was not my intention it was most unconsciously done. I apologies, I meant no slight on your work, your world or your vision. In future, I will make a more conscious attempt to refrain from making comments that may incite any distress or is in need of reproach.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

That being said, Matthew if my remarks have managed to case any offences, that was not my intention it was most unconsciously done. I apologies, I meant no slight on your work, your world or your vision.

No, not at all.  You're fine.

 

I think that what we're seeing is a recurring theme.  There was some concern about belas, because when we in our world think of sex workers, there's baggage attached.  When we talk about priests, a few people have brought Catholic priests into the conversation (even though they're not relevant) because in our world, that's what we're used to.  And now we're talking about what T'rin looks like, and it's natural to turn to what we know in our world and what we're used to.

Since ITL is a fantasy series, though, it takes place not just "outside of our world" as if they were just next door on Mars; it takes place without our world.  We don't exist.  Our experiences and perspectives aren't theirs and have no bearing on their world.

They do have bearing on how we read and interpret their world, and we have to be careful about when we bring our perspective into it and when we don't.

What you imagine when you see T'rin is, ultimately, up to you.  And unless the text describes him differently, one interpretation is as valid as another.

If we say, Kudorin's a pharaoh, Egypt has pharaohs, therefore Kudorin looks Egyptian, that would be inaccurate, because you're basing what Kudorin looks like based on this world.

Now, I will say, the world of ITL (aside from having two moons) seems to follow our math and science pretty closely, so I imagine that their weather/atmosphere/whatever works similarly to ours.  I would guess that, having whole clans of people frequently exposed to the elements for generations upon generations, on the plains (which don't sound like a tundra), the sun would get to them after a while, and their skin wouldn't be pasty-white.  But that leaves open a lot of variety of shading.

-Matthew

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I don't want to stifle the conversation.  I encourage y'all to discuss ITL in all directions.  That's what this board is for! 

At the same time, our world and the world of ITL aren't the same, and too much discussion where we put our cultural values/histories/etc. onto ITL's universe may lead readers to continue in those directions.  When I write ITL, I'm carefully constructing a large world and several detailed societies.  If we here on the board make real-life associations between our world and ITL's world, readers may pick up on those ideas and carry them over and apply them as they read ITL.  Which confuses a lot of the issues and ideas I'm trying to present.

What we know of basic human experience and human interactions, absolutely, bring those in.  The ITL folks are human and they share in the same emotions we do.

But if you know a lot of French diplomats, don't expect Orinakin to act just like them, because "that's how diplomats act."  That's how diplomats act here on Earth inside of the culture, constraints, and political hierarchy of France.  Which has nothing to do with Orina Anoris.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

This is horribly incomplete, but here are four random descriptions of T'rin:

...but [Bade's] musculature wasn’t as fiercely chiseled as T’rin’s... [ITL 14.2]

T’rin was muscular from effort, dark from the sun, and in touch with the land. [ITL 16]

It was amazing, how perfectly defined his muscles were, like he was a living sculpture of the perfect athlete. [ITL 22.8]

T’rin’s body was hard and warm, powerful and sleek, with devastating muscular detail... [ITL 26.6]

T'rin's frequently described as muscular, but it's often with specific mentions of how defined/detailed/chiseled his muscles are, not how big they are.  Considering what his job is, he has to be pretty light and fast.  So, in my mind, that's less Desin/dukot and more "sleek."

-Matthew

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

This thread has been edited to move images, and the discussion of images, to the Casting ITL thread.