I haven't been by for a while, but I just read this chapter, and I have to say: my brain broke a little, and I think I liked it.  This was the best possible way to end a long, hard day at work.

Awesome, as usual. I didn't get a chance to read for a while, and it was great to catch up.

The myth of Tregh and Dormro is super interesting. I love how well it serves as a reflection of what's going on with Kudorin and Xio Voe. Bade brings it up because of the comparison to the depth of passion that Kudorin and Xio Voe feel for each other, but what really struck me was the part about Tregh changing the world while pursuing his love, because from the start of the Rainbow Book there's been the promise that what's going on is going to change the shape of things. Made of win. 

Seems to me that Ritek was awfully quick to point the finger.  He has access, just as much as Hitari does and who would ever suspect him?

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say that Ritek would be a ridiculous suspect.  He's a Parike.  They're not just one of the wealthiest families in Orikodisata... but the entire country of Orina Anoris.  He doesn't need the money.  As a Parike, his family would never let him live even slightly badly even if they hated him--his shame would be their shame, his bad appearance their bad appearance.  It behooves them to make him look as successful and wealthy as possible.

Ritek has the reputation of a seducer, a notorious rogue, a philanderer... but not a thief. 

- Jae

I'm about halfway through the chapter, maybe a little more, and... I don't know whether to be excited or worried. I was theorizing about this a few chapters ago, and I am seriously geekishly anticipating finding out whether or not Hitari is the culprit and, if he is, what the circumstances are and what'll happen as a result.

I suppose it could be Ritek, but it doesn't seem very likely. What would his motivation be?

“Ah, Anoremin,” Kudorin said.  “If you knew what was in store for you, you wouldn’t think twice of my king.”

Matthew? You are such a tease.

I shall now return to being ded with finals. Awesome chapter make of awesomeness, as per usual.

So... do I have to go change my attire before I read?

No, no, the blacking out is because of the liquor.

(God, after tonight's performance I kind of wish. How much offstage drama can one group of people have, I ask you?  )

How about abebooks? Or even Barnes & Noble? Wouldn't want you to go into book withdrawal while waiting for Amazon to remove its head from... other parts of its anatomy.

...wait, motor oil? Did my guilt lead me to mug a mechanic?

I've been AWOL from the internet for over a week, which is probably why I didn't hear about it before this... I should have known that the lovely, book-savvy people on the board would know!

Yeah, they're saying that it was a computer glitch while they were removing adult content from the sales rankings and search engines, but... well, I think this about sums it up: (WARNING, this link is so not PG-13) http://community.livejournal.com/political_macro/238767.html. As one of the people on my f-list said, "at best, it's incompetence. At worst, Amazon is lying through it's teeth."

I'm with Vani on this one. I'm not even sure I'll go back after they fix it. I feel bad every time I buy from them anyway... too many of my friends work at or own independent bookstores, and somehow they always know when I've bought from Amazon. Maybe they can smell the guilt on me?

I'm in the middle of play rehearsals, so I've been sort of absent here on the board, but I was wondering if ya'll had heard about Amazon's recent fail?

Apparently, they've decided to remove from their listings and sales rankings all LGBT books and all erotica. From what I've seen so far, the purge includes everything from Lady Chatterley's Lover to Heather with Two Mommies. As a result, now if you type the word "homosexuality" into Amazon's search engine, the first book to come up is A Parent's Guide to Preventing Homosexuality, followed by a whole slew of similar titles.

Amazon's official statement is that they're removing from their search engines and sales rankings any books with adult material in them. This is a list compiled on LiveJournal of the books that have been purged:

http://community.livejournal.com/meta_writer/11992.html

If you'll scroll down, you'll see that this list includes not only books with explicit content but YA novels, as well as non-fiction books that... don't look particularly racy. (A college guide aimed at LGBT students? A book on military policy, as it pertains to homosexuality?) The impact of this is, basically, that if you're looking for a good gay romance on Amazon or want to know more about the "don't ask, don't tell" policy in the military, you'd better know the author's name or the title of the book, because they won't be showing up on Amazon's search engines, or they'll be on the last page because they have no sales ranking. Imagine what that means to new authors in the genre, or to people who are looking for information without having a specific book in mind.

So, yeah. Amazon fails.

Incidentally, was that a yay or nay vote on a mythical creatures type page?

  Who, me?         

You know, one of the wonderful things about Rhia is that, for some reason, she and I rarely want to do the same pages, or at least aren't interested in putting the same type of info on those pages.  Lucky me!   

- Jae

That's because you take on crazy insane projects like Kudorin and Jacacea, and I sit there and go, "I... really don't want to control-f my way through a hundred and twenty nine chapters, I think I'll make a page on something that was neatly summarized in this one chapter over here."

Why would you encourage me?

-Matthew

I think the real question, sir, is... why wouldn't I?

Started the page. La.

Maybe we can ask Rhia to make a "oiapaienei" page since she made the stand-alone "shiefa" page. 

I could definitely do that although, to be fair, I didn't create the "shiefa" page -- it was created, there was just nothing on it. I can make an "oiapaienei" page, if ya'll like, although... does it need a whole page? "Shiefa" has a lot of significance, since it comes up repeatedly, but I think the "oiapaienei" is only mentioned once.

I'm a dork, so I'm almost tempted to make a bestiary page for mythical creatures from different countries.

If I'm remembering right, the Jacacean realist movement was nature-focused and very up-close-and-personal, right? So maybe something like this seed-pod painting?

http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/seed-pod-mindy-lighthipe.jpg

Your niece is insanely cute.

You know, when I first saw that on the ITL 129 post, I thought that it was an odd way of saying that the new chapter would been up soon. Er, shoon.

...now I know better.

Sounds like you two have had some much spookier time than I have!

I have seen the Winchester Mystery House on TV I think I would be more afraid of getting lost then anything.

Smart girl. You keep being afraid -- I can't tell you how many times one of my tourists decided it would be a good idea to wander off or lag on the tour, and I had to call the guide station to go find them. They asked us to do head counts every few rooms. It's easy enough to navigate once you know the place, but if you don't, it's extremely easy to get lost.

Its a very interesting house I would love to visit someday.

If you do, let me know. The guides don't tell ghost stories on tour, because the tour groups are very diverse and there are 1) small children, 2) people who are there for the history, not the ghosts, and 3) people who just don't want to be scared. I can tell you beforehand, though, were weird stuff happened most frequently, and where there were sightings. We were allowed to tell stories on the behind the scenes tour, because the groups were smaller and there were no children under ten; I always tried to slip at least one in, but there's no gurentee that your guide will, especially if they're crunched for time.

I did a investigation at a house and picked up a awesome evp it is a mans voice and there were 4 girls there no men and you can hear him say perfect "I gotta go, I gotta go"   Then I just did a house a couple of weeks ago where a woman hung herself in the garage and I we were out in the garage asking for a sign and I said can you knock and I got three perfect knocks then everytime i asked for a knock or said thank you it would knock...it was awesome we are going back there next month.

I'm impressed. I shot a few rolls of film before I left, mostly for purposes of nostalgia. A few odd things showed up, but I'm still not sure that they weren't just effects of the light, or the lens, or the flash, or whatever.

I'm tired and need to be up in a few hours for work, but I just have to say, Remin is made of awesome:

“He started this,” Talin said.  “I’m going to play along until he gets over himself.”

It wasn’t exactly the stupidest thing Remin had ever heard, but it certainly won for the day.

Since my decision to edit and not write articles seems to have crumpled, I'm claiming the Tiha page, if no one else wants it. 

I think I may have been in academia too long, and it has permanently warped my brain, because I found the debate going on in this chapter to be nearly as hot as ITL's sex scenes. Although, judging from Kudorin's reaction, I'm not the only one.

I hereby vote that we award Rhia the title of Most Fascinating Board Member.  Matthew - give her a rainbow colored plaque.

I'm honored to receive the nomination, although I'm torn as to what cheesy Oscar reference I should make if I win. Should I thank the little people, or just conclude that you like me, you really really like me?

How do you all get such fun jobs??  Teach me!!

I sort of fall into a lot of mine. The porn company job I got through a friend of my mom's. The mystery house gig was basically me impulsively quitting a shitty job, filing an application without even knowing that they were hiring, and getting a call a week later for a group interview. They conducted personal interviews immediately after that, and the manager hired me right away. I had been expecting a much more arduous process, but they have a super high turnover rate, like most places in the service industry. The "interview" for my current job went something like this:

Boss: You should come work for us! We get Chinese food every Friday!
Other employee: And there are hot Italian guys in the tutoring center!
Me: ...you had me at "Chinese food."

Oh, but people wanted to hear ghost stories. I never had anything huge happen to me, no actual sightings or anything, although I can break out other people's experiences and some of the stories I told on tour if you want 'em. As for my own, some of these might be a bit garbled, because the house is a complete maze and it's sometimes hard to describe the, er, geographic features to someone who hasn't seen them.

So, when I was training as a tour guide, we were expected to go through the house and practice giving the tour in the rooms we would actually be speaking in. There's a portion of the house that was closed off after the 1906 earthquake, supposedly because Mrs. Winchester, who had been trapped in that part of the house during the quake, took it as a sign from the spirits that she had been focusing too much attention on  the front part of the house. She closed up the front part of the house, including the Daisy Bedroom (called that for the elaborate daisy-patterned stained glass windows in the room), which had been her primary bedroom before the quake, as well as the room that she was trapped in during the quake. Next to the Daisy Bedroom is a set of unfinished rooms that were probably intended to be guest rooms. The doors are directly next to each other, and face out onto a small square of hallway; across from the door to the Daisy bedroom is a set of stairs that lead up, and across from the door to the unfinished guestrooms is a door leading out of the hall. The unfinished guestrooms, as they're walked on the tour, are in the shape of a U; when standing in the final arm of the U, you can see the entire hall, including the door and the stairs, but you can't see into the Daisy Bedroom, right next door.

I was in the final arm of the U in the guestrooms, mostly just walking through, since that part of the tour isn't really used unless the group in front of you is moving slowly and you need to stall for time while waiting for them to vacate the Daisy Bedroom so your group can go in. I very clearly saw someone's shadows stretching up the stairs, so I assumed that another tour guide was standing in the doorway of the Daisy Bedroom, either practicing their tour like I was or cleaning, which is what we did between tours. I yelled out a greeting, and a moment later the shadow disappeared, so I figured whoever it was hadn't heard me and had moved further into the Daisy Bedroom. I walked around the corner and into the Daisy Bedroom, but there was no one there. I checked the whole room -- still, no one. It was a little weird, since there was no exit from the room except for the stairs and the door in the hall, which had been in my line of sight the whole time I was in the guestrooms. Still, I didn't think much of it, until I went to stand by the door and realized that, because of the position of the windows in the room and the light at that time of day, my shadow fell against one of the walls closest to the door, rather than through the door and up the stairs, like the one I had seen.

The Daisy Bedroom was actually the site of a lot of our weird stories, including some people who spent the night in there (they were writing a book, or something) and felt a phantom quake partway through the evening.

There were strange noises once in a while, but nothing that couldn't be explained away, especially since there were tour groups and other guides all over the house, and there are all these windows and doors and quirks in the building, so sometimes you can hear things two floors up and three rooms over as though they were right next to you. The second time something happened to me, I had been working there for several months, and it was summer. The house gets bitch hot in the summer, because the ventilation is crap and, being as it's a historical landmark, putting in AC would be a no-no. Instead, we scatter a few fans throughout the house, which means that it's still unbearably hot but there's a nice breeze in a few rooms.

That particular day, I was going through after the last tour and setting up some of the fans. The last fan I had to place was in the Twin Dining Room. You go into the Twin Dining Room through the pre-1906 kitchen; there are two exits from the room (well, three, but the third leads into the parlor and is always locked). The first exit leads into the entrance hall; that's the exit we use on tour. The second is a pair of glass doors that lead into the foyer outside of the ballroom. Sometimes tour guides would use them as a shortcut, rather than going through the entrance hall, which also leads into the foyer, but I never thought it was worth it, since the glass doors stick like crazy and take forever to open and close. Basically, it's another U shape, with the Twin Dining Room and the ballroom foyer as the tips, and the entrance hall as the curve. There are two other rooms off the foyer -- the ballroom itself, and an unfinished room that was probably going to be an addition to the ballroom. From the Twin Dining Room, you can see directly through the glass doors, into the foyer and the unfinished room beyond it, and vice versa.

I was setting up the fan by the glass doors because there's an outlet there. I knew that this particular outlet worked, because I had plugged a vacuum into it earlier that same day and multiple times before with no problems. I plugged the fan in. No go. I waited, because the fans were probably purchased sometime in the seventies and they could take a few seconds to warm up. I pushed anything that even remotely resembled a button. Waited. Still not working. Unplugged it and plugged it back it. Waited some more, and then finally gave up.

There are phones scattered throughout the house in little hidden corners, so that tour guides can call the guide center if there's an emergency, if someone needs to leave the tour, if the guide misplaces a guest, if a guest misplaces themself (the more likely scenario), if something gets broken, if a guest breaks something, if the guide has a question... for a variety of other reasons. The closest one was in the unfinished room off the ballroom so, with a little sigh at having to stay an extra ten minutes, I went to go call my boss and ask her what the f was wrong with the f-ing fan.

Not wanting to fight with the glass doors, I walked through the entrance hall, into the foyer, and from there into the unfinished room. The walk takes a whole of five seconds, maybe. I dialed my boss, and pulled the chord on the phone to its full length so that I could continue to glare at the fan through the glass doors. As if to mock me, if continued its not working.

"The fan in the Twin Dining Room isn't working."
"Oh?"
"Is the 'on' button in some super-weird place that I didn't think to look?"
"There... shouldn't be any buttons."
Then what the hell was I trying to push? "Okay. It's still not working."
"That's odd. Try again. If you can't get it to work, leave it, and I'll try before I close up for the evening."

I hung up, my heart greatly gladdened by the knowledge that I could leave, even if I couldn't get the stupid thing to function. I walked into the foyer, and another look at the fan through the glass doors. Predictably, it still wasn't working. I walked around through the entrance hall, which really couldn't have taken more than three seconds. When I got into the Twin Dining Room, the fan was going full blast.

So yeah, that's the extent of my personal spooky stories. Nothing terribly explicit, but strange enough that they managed to register on my weird-o-meter. Sorry this rambled on a bit -- I tend to tell stories in type the same way I do in person. At parties. While drunk.

Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, and yeah, I had a couple spooky things happen -- nothing huge, but I'm happy to tell stories, if you like.

That's crazy! I always hear these stories about how wacko some of the people who call customer service lines are, but the ants and fleas thing is a new one.

So, the "have you clicked today?" thread made me think... what's the most interesting job you've ever had?

As I mentioned, I worked for a porn company the summer after high school. I also worked as a tour guide at a historical monument that's notoriously haunted, and that was pretty interesting. What about you guys?

You just get more and more interesting.

-Matthew

 

My mom got me the job. A friend of her's was the head of the IT department (or rather, he WAS the IT department). Data entry and filing are pretty much the same anywhere, no matter what you happen to be filing. I couldn't eat cream cheese for a few months after, though.

Our boss was super paranoid about the rest of the offices in the building figuring out what we did. I was always a little tempted to tell him, "look, the walls are thin, so either they know what we do, or they think that we have the coolest break room ever."

I'm too scared to click on these ads....lol

I've been clicking. I worked for a porn company the summer after high school... this is making me a bit nostalgic.

Hey! I'm red! Groovy.

I totally wasn't thinking about how ITL starts off. Because if you look at it from the way a new reader would, then yeah, ITL does have more in common with HP/LoTR than I was originally thinking. For a new reader though, I think that might be a really good comparison. "It starts off something like LoTR or HP if HP had more main characters, except it's a romance. And eventually you get intimate with everyone. And they get intimate with other people. And they have colored hair."

*laughs* It's entirely possible I still have new-reader brain, since I've only been around for a couple months. Yeah, a major difference is that HP is third-person limited, so we never wander away from Harry's POV. In ITL, we get POVs other than Bade's, but he's still a very good introductory character for we-the-readers, because in many ways he's just as clueless as we are. We learn as he learns.

Colored hair.  That's something I just love

I was recently dangling ITL before a coworker of mine who seemed interested and (with the benefit of a few beers), I found the words "color-coded for your convenience!" popping out of my mouth.

And I had a few thoughts on the LOTR and HP comparisons. Those stories are both epic save the world stories. One told through a hobbit and the other through a teenage magician. Both discover a new world, face a foe much bigger than themselves, and both triumph with the help of friends. ITL is similar in that it is epic. It differs in that it's not exactly a save the world and it's told through a family instead of a single POV.

True, that. I think another reason I get the feeling of LotR/HP is because Bade's POV is the first one we get. It's the person who's used to a smaller, quieter world being exposed to new and different things beyond their front door; the reader gets to learn about Orina Anoris through Bade's eyes, just like the reader gets to learn about the magical world through Harry's eyes. Bade acts as a proxy for the person reading the story, because we get to experience all the wonder and newness of the world the story's set in right along with him.

Excellent post, by the way.

(Also: Teehee, I'm drunk dialing the board!)

I like this question!

I really didn't expect to like ITL, actually. Jae spent a week or two nudging me in the direction of the webpage, and I finally relented because she and I have similar taste in a lot of fictiony-type-things. Also, because Jae uses a pointy stick when she nudges people.

I looked over the page while we were on the phone, so I had the benefit of a running commentary helping me to link together the info on the page. "Huh," said I. "It seems like this Matthew guy has put a lot of thought into his world building. Okay, I'll try the first three chapters, and if I like it I'll subscribe after I get paid this Friday."

"You'll get hooked," Jae warned. She may have laughed maniacally.

...I subscribed the next day. And called Jae at what for her is an indecent hour. I think the first words out of my mouth were, "You got me hooked on literary CRACK! At the start of the semester!" I'm also pretty sure that's how I started every conversation with her for at least two weeks.

I think I'm babbling on about how I got started because I can't really pinpoint what got me hooked -- or rather, I'm not sure I want to list all of what got me hooked. Like I said, the amount of thought put into the world building gets me. I love the characters, too; they change and grow, but in ways that make sense and at a nice, steady pace. I absolutely love that there's humor mixed in with the serious drama; I think that might have been a lot of what prompted me to subscribe, because I'm always terribly impressed when an author can pull on my heartstrings and make me bust a gut laughing in the same scene.

And yeah, the sex scenes are awesome. They need to be mentioned, I think, if only because so much of the explicit sex that gets written is just... not good.

Favorite character not a Sibling: I'll admit I haven't thought about that one because, while I love 'em all, I'm choosy about calling favorites, and both of my current ones are from the Siblings. Anikira, I think.

Excited about: Remin's book, I'll admit.

...okay, I think I'm done. For now. Sorry, this got a bit rambling -- I'm tired.

Oh I like that, Rhia!  I think everything you said makes a lot of sense. 

Thanks!

As for whether Remin would be allowed to sleep with the belas, there's no way to know yet, but as things stand I'm going to guess that it would be a choice made by him and his husband.

So, I'm going to go with if the high priest is indeed allowed to sleep with the belas after he's married -- then yes, Remin will be having lots of sex with his husband and the belas 

~McCartny~

I realized that I probably should have explained my reasoning behind that... I'm not sure that your everyday priest would be able to have sex outside of the marriage (simply because the whole "potential abuse of power" thing would still be valid after marriage) but I think that it's possible that the belas, who serve the Siblings in a professional capacity, are an exception to that rule. It wouldn't be asking them to do something they might not normally do, were priestly authority not involved -- it would be asking them to do something that they would do anyway. Mind you, this part is all speculation.

Whether or not he can sleep with the belas, though, is still up in the air. What if his husband is the monogamous type? 

Because the Priest are not denied the right to have sex after they are married, their period of abstinence's seem to be less about a sign of devotion to the gods and more about creating this idealized image of what marriage should be.  Or are we suppose to look at their ability to resist sexual temptation while they remain single as their willingness to put their spiritual devotion above  there human desire.

If you'll look above, you'll see that this question has already been addressed. The chastity vow that the priesthood takes has less to do with idealizing marriage or sexual temptation than it does with preventing the priesthood from abusing their power, either intentionally ("if you have sex with me, you'll be closer to the gods") or unintentionally ("if I have sex with this priest, maybe I'll be closer to the gods!").

For that matter, saying that they're meant to represent an idealized marriage implies that Anorian society defines an ideal marriage as a monogamous one. This could be me misremembering, but I don't recall anything about Anorians objecting to the marriage involving other partners, as long as it's all aboveboard and both members of the couple are happy with the arrangement. Orinakin and Bade involve the belas, Selorin says at one point that he is against Orinakin keeping Bade to himself, and Orinakin offers Bade to Remin for some quality make-out time. None of this implies that an "ideal" marriage has to be an exclusive one.

How could Remin have sex with a Bela after he is married when there is this emphasis on refraining from your sexual desires and sharing your body with his spouse?  oh, since  the priest are such an important part of Anorian society and so many people look to them for guidance wouldn't the citizens of Orina Anoris  look at a priest marriage and think that is what they should try to imitate? Orinakin mentioned that it is up to the individual couples to decide how exclusive they are going to be with their spouse but I have to wonder how many couples introduce other people into their relationship if they see their priest, the people they admire and look up to, being so loyal to their respective husbands and wives.

All of this hinges on the idea that priestly chastity is based on the repression of desire or the ideal marriage being a monogamous one. As for people patterning their marriages on those formed by priests... I don't think that would work, on several levels. For one thing, there's a heavy emphasis on each couple building a relationship based on what works for them, personally. The priests bless the union only after they're sure that both partners are on the same page, and that the marriage will be a healthy one. A marriage patterned elusively on someone else's marriage, rather than based on personal tastes and needs, would not be a healthy one.

For that matter, if patterning your marriage on someone you look up to and admire was acceptable, one could easily argue that polygamy would be prevalent, since the pharaoh -- a god -- has more than one spouse. It doesn't seem to work that way.

As for whether Remin would be allowed to sleep with the belas, there's no way to know yet, but as things stand I'm going to guess that it would be a choice made by him and his husband.

Oooo... pretty.

Jae, you have teh mad organizational skillz.

Maybe they'll get a great cook for Xio Voe and whoever they get will be THE ONE for Remin.  Plausible?

I've pretty much given up on guessing what surprises are in store, but I will admit that the thought has gone through my head. Thanks for bringing it up.

EVERYTHING.

There's also the fact that Jacacean cuisine might not agree with the Anorian palette. Different spices, different cooking methods... any number of other factors that make a dish from another country taste strange and unappealing. You'll notice that even when he serves Xio Voe Jacacean dishes, Kudorin continues to eat Anorian food, probably because he prefers it. There's nothing to indicate that Anorian food is sub-par in the eyes of anyone but Xio Voe, who is, after all, used to a very different kind of food. If you show a dish of enchiladas to someone who has never eaten anything but Chinese food, they'd probably look at you askance, too.

We also know from DoE that Anorian chefs do look outside their borders for culinary ideas. They just don't necessarily look to Jacaea, for the reasons that Falconer and Jae already cited.

Yeah, I didn't get my moment of epiphany for what our professor was doing until like the 3rd week or something.

Yeah, about three weeks...

...if you add another five weeks or so.

(I feel really bad for Rhia in this regard, actually.  Sucks that this was her first class here.  Depending on the type of class, usually humanities classes, people tend to speak out more when they understand a lot and are excited by the material--there's not much "stupid question" asking, which I think can be both a curse and a blessing.  The nature of the English major in general, I think, is one that doesn't really promote asking any sort of comprehension questions (valid or not), because it's so very based on discussing  interpretations rather than comprehension.  They just assume you understand and can contribute something.  It's not like a science or math course where, when people are confused, they tend to ask more questions. 

People are way, way too self-conscious in our major -- in a lot of humanities majors, I think -- about the possibility of sounding stupid. I don't get it. I'm there to learn; do I really care if I embarrass myself for five seconds by asking about something that most people have already caught on to? It's not like most of the other students are going to remember that I asked a dumb question by the time class ends, and the professors hardly penalize ignorance. You know, because it's sort of their job to... remedy ignorance.

Of course, this fear of sounding dumb creates that not-so-rare and elusive creature, the Pretentious Jackass, who thinks that the best way to avoid sounding dumb is to ramble on for five minutes using as many big words and obscure references as the possibly can.

so his methodology basically made our brains want to pop open the top of our heads, crawl out of our skulls, and run away.  In the first half of the semester, there was a lot of silent staring at handouts and silently screaming, "OMGWTF???")

Heeheehee.

But yeah, I really like the crazy old man now, after I understood what the heck he was saying.  He's such a dear.  (Curmudgeonly, and dear.)  Rhia and I have conversations about how fond of him we are.  I feel like, in his classes, he breaks brains open, tries to put them back together, and when some of them don't, he kind of wanders off. 

He is a dear, even if he's a bit odd. I remember, last semester I ran into the GSI when I was grabbing dinner one night, and we started chatting. He asked if I liked or hated the class so far. I sort of stared at him blankly for a moment, and then he was like, "Both?"

...yeah.

I pretty much like it straight up now, but I still think that the level of detail involved is a bit crazy.

Thanks! Yeah I was silly enough to do a double honours in English and History and a minor in Cultural studies, so I have papers due ever week.

Eek! I feel your pain -- I'm (tentatively) double-majoring in Near Eastern Studies. I can't imagine doing honors in both, or pursuing a minor on top of it. I think it's a little harder, too, because what constitutes a good English paper is very different than what constitutes a good History paper. (Plus, trying to cite in Chicago or Turabian still  makes my head spin. MLA I can do in my sleep, but you add footnotes and I'm lost.)

So you have to look at things like you're Xio Voe?

Hrm. Interesting thought. If there's really any form of literary criticism that is psuedo-scientific, it's that one. It still has a lot to do with what emotions the words invoke in the reader, though.

That's a really interesting way of examining the text.  I vote that all literature majors should have a mandatory class on formalism.

I think it's a really useful and interesting way of looking at the text, if only because it's not the way that we're usually taught to look at the text. This class is intense, though. The first semester I had this teacher, I was baffled half the semester, just completely lost. I would walk out thoroughly depressed, because it was my first semester at this Frighteningly Pretentious Prestigious University, and I just wasn't getting it, and I was sure that everyone else was smarter than me.

...turns out they weren't, they were just quieter about being baffled.

...which, er, might actually be an indication that they were smarter. They knew when to STFU.

The structuralist stuff, though, makes me nervous as an author.

God, tell me about it. I would never want someone to look at something I wrote under that close a microscope. I'm careful about my word choice, but damned if I'm that careful.

So basically a super literal interpretation, strictly of the text? I think I get it.

It can't be too-too literal, because parts of the text are bound to be metaphorical, but yeah, basically.

I'm not sure if  my question should be posted here, in Priests and Sex or should be a whole new topic all together. Oh, if my question is something that has all ready been discussed, can some one point me to that thread.

When Remin gets married do you think that he will visit the belams? I know I want to see how Remin is with the belas but because of his position do you think that he will only be able to partner with his husband?

I think this was actually asked/covered in the Priests and Sex thread, if you want to glance over there. 

Hun, I don't call "four o'clock the day it's due" early, especially since I TA a class from 6:30 to 9:30, and only got home about fifteen minutes ago. If I had literally put it off 'til the last minute, I'd have about an hour and a half to finish it. And that would make me cry. 

Actually, every time I try to explain formalism, I pretty much fail. Like I said, I have a hard time wrapping my head around it. Basically, though, it's literary analysis using the text, and nothing but the text, but in a sort of extreme way. You basically don't touch anything that isn't explicitly stated in the text. For example, one student in the class started to say something about Mercutio's feelings, or motivations, or some such. Most analysis classes, this would be reasonable, as long as he could find things in the text that seem to back up his assertions, and as long as there was nothing in the text that out-and-out disproved his theory. This class, the teacher looked at him and said, "Mercutio is a fictional character. He doesn't have feelings."

On top of that, our particular teacher seems to be coming from a structuralist point of view, which means that he's looking at things on a word-to-word, syllable-to-syllable basis, and is especially concerned with how the word choice and sounds present in the text effect the person hearing or reading them.

Keep in mind that this way of analyzing literature was pretty much in vogue from the fifties through to the seventies; not a lot of professors teach it anymore, at least not exclusively.

...tell me if that didn't help at all. If you want, I could send you a copy of the paper I just wrote; that might give you a better idea of how crazy and detail-oriented this is.

Thanks for the well-wishes and reassurances, everyone. Ya'll are awesome. 

Honestly, it wouldn't be such a pain, except this professor teaches formalism, which isn't really a school of thought that most people... use... at this point. So pretty much none of the other professors teach it, and it's difficult to make my brain function in that way.

I submitted my paper about an hour ago. Jae is planning to scrape in before the deadline. We're both still alive. Mostly.

...my normal posting schedule and wiki-editing habits will resume once midterms are over. 

Story good. Like story. Ug make fire.

Er.

I especially like the beginning, where we learn about Gael's life. It almost reads like a fairytale, which seems perfect for the character. That's the only specific thing I can comment on right now... when my brain is something closer to functioning, I'll say more.

It is nice to see more of these characters, though. With everything that was going on with Xio Voe, we didn't get to learn as much about them as we did about the previous batch of suitors; it was good to see them so well fleshed out, and it makes me look forward to the stories about the rest of the suitors.

Hot damn!

 

Must... resist... reading. Cannot... read... about sexy princes... until done... writing... about murderous kings.

...

...

...

Resistance is futile.

Jae and I both have a paper due tomorrow.

*wilts*

Tomorrow morning, I will look like this: 

Then, while I wait for my grade, I will look like this:  <----- Rhia, praying to the mighty gods of structuralism.

And also this: 

And if I get a bad grade... well, I would look like this:  , except my GSI is cute and I have a crush on his grading style, so mostly I just look like this:

...okay, kvetching complete.

I would love to work under Desin....yep, I certainly wouldn't mind working under him. 

 

Selorin, since I work in education. Although I probably wouldn't be much help in revolutionizing the educational system, if/when Xio Voe ends up doing that. "Books are preeeety. Wait, what do you mean the planet revolves around the sun? Do you mean that metaphorically? Because I could totally dig you meaning that metaphorically. No? Are you sure?"

No is abilities is what prevents him from disconnecting because it allows him to have a greater understanding of human natures. When you add that with his understanding of law, Selorin unlike the other judges would be able to apply the law more precisely.  in regards to my comment on leaving room for Anorian law to evolve, what i was think of is
The Anorian legal system is able to evolve because Selorin understanding of human nature and the law may lead him to create new precedents in order to have more accurate judicial system.

Yes, but I don't see that Selorin's understanding of human nature or willingness to adapt is based exclusively on him having received certain gifts from the gods. Part of that is him as a person, not just him as the fourth Sibling. Besides, the mindset implies that all other Anorian judges are basically superfluous. As for the potential to disconnect... see my previous post.

(This thought was written after my post below) mm I wonder if we can uses Namidakeli  as an example of a priest that had disconnceted from this people.  he had begun to deleagate mroe and more of his work on to the priest under him and he strated to see less and less people.  could we guess that he started to do this becasie he felt that a man of his age,his postion, and the number or contirbution he made to Orina Anoris no longer had to reach out tot he people. So he used his office and cermony in order to disconnect.

See my previous post -- he was the exception that I mentioned. Keep in mind that he is the exception, not the rule, and that much of his bad behavior seems to be linked to his anger at having to obey a High Priest who is... what, a third of his age?

I just think that the bureaucracy, the politics, and the ceremony that a part of religion, diplomacy and law tend to create distance between the leaders and citizens. One would think that a person like Remin would spend more time talking with his other high priest writing letters to other religious officials and political leaders. Yet we still see Remin actively take part in blessing his citizens. If I went to the Vatican, I cannot imagine that I would ever get to receive personal council form Benedict XVI but we know that Remin’s citizens can come and see him. The same goes for Orinakin and Selorin I wouldn’t expect someone in there position to converser closely with there citizens I would expect them to delegate and receive a lot more secondhand or third hand accounts on  what is happening with their people  from what there advisor tell them. However, their enhanced abilities seem to drive them to want to hear and understand the opinion of the people they want to have that deeper connection and without that ability, I think that Remin, Orinakin, and Selorin would be more likely to stay within this bubble.

Anorian society is structured differently than our world. Unlike Benedict XVI, it seems to be understood and even expected that Remin will be available to his people for counsel. Yes, the abilities of the siblings do have some impact on how much they involve themselves, but that's not all there is to it.

This may seem a little harsh but Orinakin’s assistance and his citizens are not as important or hold a many responsibilities that Orinakin does.  It is easier for Anorian who works 9 to 5 to spend three times a week helping to set up the festival of Setanot. You can almost count it as an extra hobby or something they do to pass the time.  Orinakin's assistance might be involved in philanthropic causes but they may be assigned to a few tasks and have to deal with one specific cause. Orinakin on the other hand in one week may draft 15 treaties, sign 5 of them, attend four international conferences, visit three nations, try to find a way to end conflict on the plains, and still make time to write home to offer his two cents on what his sibling should do for the Setanot festival.  theis is going back to points I made before,but Orinakins empthay is what may drive to take extra steps to rememeber not only to attend international conferces but also  find ways to build a play ground for the children in Vafiance.

Yes, but his citizens and assistants also have less to work with. A regular Anorian citizen working three times a week to help is taking time away from their job, their family, and possibly their own rather limited coffers in order to do so. That wasn't the point I was trying to make, though -- what I was saying was, as a whole, the Anorians seem inclined to be charitable (with some exceptions). Therefore, we can't say how much of Orinakin's drive is based on the society he was raised in, and how much on his empathy.

There's also the expectations placed on him as one of the rulers, his own feelings that power and luxury require an equal part of responsibility, and his own personality... to say that the only thing that drives him to take those extra steps is his gods-given empathy is undervaluing his complexity as a character. Yes, that's a part of it, but it's just a part of what makes Orinakin.

...and my resolve to add no new information lasted all of two days.

Wow.

I did have a question, though. I'm trying to make sure pages are all linked up, and we have both a page on Nosupolin Mythology (customs, beliefs, etc), and a good deal of mythology posted on the main page for Nosupolis. Should the info on mythology be on the mythology page with a link from the main page? Should the info be on the main page with a link from the mythology page? Should the info be on both pages, in replicate? My personal preference would be the first, but since I created neither page and someone obviously put a hell of a lot of work into the Nosupolis main page, I wanted to throw the question out there.

So, I don't know.  Do you think that Hitari should've pushed more, or did he do the right thing by letting it go?
-Matthew

So you don't think that maybe  knows what's going on with  so he is refusing to change his hair or anything else just to push  into saying something?  I'm thing  knows what  is up to trying to distance himself and I don't think  wants him to stop fussing over him and this is just his way of trying to push    to keep giving him advice on his appearance or just not changing things at all.

Did I just make any sense??....lol

That makes perfect sense -- it's basically what I said to Jae when we were reading the chapter. My feeling is that Talin suspects that Anosanim is trying to put distance between them, and is basically playing chicken with Anosanim. He's very purposely refusing to take any care for his appearance because he knows it will drive Anosanim crazy, and he wants to force Anosanim into saying something... probably so that he can make it clear that such advice isn't unwelcome, and that his relationship with Anosanim won't disappear just because he's marrying Hitari.

Hitari's reaction actually made me like him a little more. For me, it showed that he wanted to make the effort to do something to help Anosanim out, but knew better than to trespass on the brothers' relationship. Mind you, I still don't trust him, but it did make me like him better. Besides, I think that Talin still would have refused, because giving in to Hitari would have confirmed, basically, that he had replaced Anosanim.

Yeah that is what I meant. When you study the law sometimes in order to find the best solution for society or in order to protect, your vision of justice or discipline a lawyer or judge are caught up in the politics and may want to rule based on these black and white concrete ideas and forget about the shades of grey.

In general -- in our world -- this may be true. That's debatable. However, we know for a fact that Selorin isn't this inflexible:

Chapter 9:

"I have sensed, sometimes very strongly, the remorse of someone I’m about to condemn.  And, sometimes, regrettably so, I’ll sense a complete lack of remorse, an utter lack of regret, even a complete willingness or determination to commit further crimes.  And I take those feelings into account.”

In other words, Selorin takes into consideration whether or not a person feels bad about the crime they've committed, which hardly indicates an unwillingness to see shades of gray in the law.

Whenever I think of Law and its relationship to society, I am always reminded of Shakespeare Measure for Measure.  Angelo does have good intentions he wants Vienna to be a morally virtuous society but he ideology and application of the law did not really reflect the reality of the situation.

I'm not following your use of this reference... Are you implying that Selorin abuses his power for personal reasons, like Angelo does with Isabella? (Trying to blackmail a would-be nun into having sex with him by holding her imprisoned brother's fate over her head.) Or that he acts in a hypocritical manner, imposing morality on others while acting in an immoral manner himself, like Angelo does? Please explain. 

With the amount of responsibilities, that Selorin has it would be easier if he applied a very strict application of law but his enhanced understanding allows him to build a system that meets the needs of the nation but also allows room for it to evolve and improve because of his connection with his citizens.

Okay, maybe I'm just not following your argument... wouldn't his ability to evolve and connect to his citizens negate the idea that it's easier for him to become disconnected? The ability to evolve and connect has nothing to do with the gifts that Selorin received from the gods upon ascending (an understanding of the law, history of the law, and the mad lie detector skillz); they are emotional traits that he would have to possess himself.

...actually, reading over the Remin part of the post, I'm pretty sure I'm not following your argument. You said a couple posts back that the gifts that the  receive after ascension are necessary because they are dealing with professions that are more trying on their willingness to understand the people. Are you saying now that this is the case? Or that it isn't? I don't think we've seen any indication of this in the text... Anorian judges in general, not just Selorin, don't seem particularly likely to view the law in black and white (such as the judge who was so much in sympathy with the feelings of the vandals posting anti-Jacacean graffiti that he wanted to give them a more lenient sentence). The priesthood in general, not just Remin, don't seem to have anything in common with the Catholic church, aside from their vow of celibacy, which is taken for a completely different reason. With one notable exception, we've yet to see a priest become less understanding of the people he serves because of the burdens placed upon him, or his connection to a god.

I can understand the thought that maybe these would be the reactions of priests and judges in our world (based on the bureaucratic structure of the world we live in) but, from what we've seen, they aren't the reactions of priests and judges in Orina Anoris. That being the case, why with the older siblings would there be a "greater chance of them disconnecting emotionally from their people" based on their profession?

In regards to Orinakin, b I kind of think that his ability to read people  is what helps him not to get caught up in the politics  that tend to hinder progress on an international scale. Plus, it keeps him from staying within this diplomatic bubble.  He understands there real consequences that can occur when there is a lack of co-operation. Orinakin’s philanthropy probably would not be as extensive either if he didn’t have those gifts from the Gods.

What? I was under the impression that most of what Orinakin does involves getting caught up in politics -- he does so with altruistic goals, but get involved he does. And from what we've seen, diplomacy as Orinakin must practice it does anything but provide a bubble. As for his philanthropy not being as extensive without his gifts... then why do his assistants want to be philanthropic without possessing his empathy? Why do every-day Anorians step up to help during the festival of Setanoto? In general -- and not without exceptions, mind you -- the Anorians seem to be a relatively philanthropic people. The cialexes. There's no way to pinpoint exactly how much of Orinakin's altruism comes naturally to him, how much is ingrained in him because of his society, and how much is a result of the gods.

For that matter, saying "Orinakin wouldn't be as extensively philanthropic without his gifts" is like saying "Orina Anoris wouldn't be as ass-kickingly awesome if it wasn't blessed by the gods." Orinakin does have gifts, Orina Anoris is blessed... 'what if' is not really relevant to a discussion of who holds the most influence, or who is most mature. You can't separate Orinakin from his empathy (remember -- he was born with it), just like you can't separate Orina Anoris from its god-given blessings.

Awesome. If anyone objects, I'll stop, but for now I'm starting to do some editing. I'm also doing my best to make sure that pages are linked together. I'm doing this randomly, just keeping track of where I've already been, so... yeah, there's a madness to my method?

Xio Voe... blush about... sex? 

I think McCartny meant the kind of flush one gets from, ahem, physical exertion, rather than embarrassment.

Since there are already so many talented people working on the wiki, and I'm not nearly as good at tracking details as they are (there are things in the wiki that I didn't even remember existed!), I was wondering... would anyone be terribly offended if I started hunting typos, and correcting them? Maybe double-checking citations? I know I'm plagued by the typo demons on a daily basis, and a second pair of eyes never hurts.

It seems like a good way to contribute, but I wanted to make sure I wouldn't offend any of the lovely wikiers by poking and prodding pages they've worked hard on. 

As you established with the ascensions of Anosanim and Talin, their personalities don't change that much even during after major upheavel. 

I respectfully disagree. Not about Anosanim and Talin, but about Remin. Anosanim and Talin didn't need to change as dramatically, because the demands placed on them are different. Remin had a uniquely hefty demand placed on him when he became High Priest -- that of celibacy.

Prior to ascension, Remin was used to being able to express the "intensely passionate" part of his nature that was "aware of the rising libidos of every attractive young man within three miles" -- for instance, Anosanim reflects on the perils of shopping with Remin, because Remin would disappear with someone in every shop they went to. After ascension, allowing that part of his personality free reign would be torturous at best, and a threat to his vow of celibacy at worst.

As you said, Remin goes all out at everything he does; moderation is not his strong suit, to say the least. So my feeling is that he developed the second, priestly part of his personality as a way of repressing the more passionate side of his nature. It's just another extreme -- he can't allow all of his passion to show so, when he's in his role as a priest, he doesn't even allow a little bit of his passion to show.

That's not to say that the calm, peaceful, harmonious part of his personality wasn't there prior to ascension, but I think it was probably more integrated at the time, because he didn't feel the need to be one or the other; his role as a passionate man didn't threaten his role as Hisi's apprentice, and vice versa. Now, his role as a priest requires that he subdue his passions, and his passions threaten his role as a priest, which necessitates that he divide them more carefully.

As for whether or not he'll always be this way... yes and no. I think that being married, and having an outlet where he can safely allow himself to integrate the dual parts of his nature will allow him certain times and places where the "split personality" isn't needed. But, at least until he steps down as High Priest, there are going to be times when he has to be a priest, and nothing but a priest.

Enough Diamond, enough.   .......          Do you have no sense of humor at all?!!!!!

You are forcing funloving people away from this board, hopefully you will not also kill our joy in ITL,
although I would not guarantee it.

From what I've seen, Diamond was simply pointing you towards the information you were looking for -- I don't think it had anything to do having or not having a sense of humor. 

I would also like to say that I am an exceptionally fun-loving gal, and Diamond is yet to do anything that scares me away from the board, or kills my joy in ITL. To the contrary, the limited experience I've had debating and discussing with her has done nothing but enrich my experience of both the story and the fan community.

Your comment strikes me as being a little unkind -- this isn't really my business, but yelling at someone is a bit excessive.

And yes - I do literally have parts of it memorized. 

For the record, Jae is uncanny. I would make an oblique comment -- something like, "Oh, I love Anikira" -- and she would guess what chapter I was on.

I'm caught up now. 

...it is remotely possible that I have the attention span of a gerbil.

Anyway, I'm about eighty pages into OTR, because I took a break from that to go back to ITL. Now that I'm caught up on ITL, I'm sure that I'll return to reading OTR. I like it very much so far, and Jordan's mother is made of awesome.

I'm so sorry -- receiving bad new about a family member is never easy. I'll keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers.

Rhia, I agree with everything you said. 

Yay!

That's what I'm saying! You should attack your enemies, not your loved ones. You would use personal information against someone you hate not someone you are in love with. The fact that he deals with pressure by lashing out is a problem. Talin deserves better for a lifetime commitment.

Exactly. I mean, it's debatable whether you should say something like that to someone you despise, much less someone you love. It's a little sad for Hitari, that his wires are twisted up to the point where he reacts like that (and yes, I use present tense, mostly because I feel that at least some of his current good behavior is a result of him being a consummate actor, the ultimate model, as well as what is perhaps an honest desire to improve for Talin). I'm not saying that Hitari can't or won't be the "better" lifetime commitment for Talin, but I still think he has a long way to go, because I still read the good behavior he's showing now as suppression as much as anything else. It's too good, for someone who used to behave so badly.

Exactly. It's abusive behavior. If my friend came to me for advice I would never say, "Well, he only did that to make you suffer, but he loves you, so that's what counts." I would say, "The fact that he loves you should make him want to protect you, not try to hurt you. Apparently to him love isn't enough to treat you well, so why should it be enough for you to stay." 

Yes! Honestly, when I first read Talin's decision to try things with Hitari again, I felt very sketchy about it, because it really did make me think of an abusee returning to an abuser. I would never, ever council someone to return to a boyfriend who had treated them as poorly as Hitari treated Talin. The fact that I feel better about it now is primarily the result of effective writing... their current interactions have lulled me, to an extent, just like I feel they've lulled Talin. At the same time, current good behavior doesn't negate past bad behavior, and I still feel like that hasn't been 100% resolved. I don't think they've dealt with Hitari's issues as a couple, which is a good deal of what's behind my current wariness -- I keep waiting for the shit to hit the fan.

Talin didn't accept the situation as it was and let it continue. He didn't let Hitari continue to hurt him over and over. He put his foot down and things got better. I just don't know if the new happiness they have created can take real pressure, and it makes me wary.

Talin's ultimatum was the catalyst for Hitari's current upwards trend, but that trend hasn't really been challenged. Until it is, there's no way to tell how solid they really are as a couple.

Thank you! The cruelty involved in saying those exact words to Talin of all people, with full knowledge of the entire back story of Talin's life, was flabbergasting. And to say it in such a flippant tone, as though it really was just an inconvenient opinion, the gall! He may as well have stabbed his steak knife through Talin's hand pinning it to the dinner table and then finished his meal with a smile. He was absolutely heartless. 

I'm not sure about heartless -- you don't put that much effort into hurting someone unless you feel something. But, like Selorin said, Hitari barely knows how to feel love, much less express it. Talin putting his foot down wasn't the magic wand that suddenly gave Hitari the ability to experience and express his love in a healthy way... it just made him realize that the way he has been expressing it would not be tolerated, no ifs, ands, or buts. I think he's been trying for Talin's sake, but I also think that a lot of what he's been doing is acting how Talin wants him to act, pushing back his natural impulses, rather than dealing with his demons and really learning that this is the right way to act towards someone you feel affection for. Of course, that's just my theory, but the change was too smooth and too sudden for me to believe that Hitari actually, really gets it.

Kudorin wouldn't stop Talin from suffering heartbreak now, just like he didn't before. Some things we just have to go through as part of the human experience. I think Kudorin is trying to give him better ways to cope with things emotionally, whether trouble comes now or later on.

With both Rini and Talin, Kudorin says there will be pain, but he doesn't stop it, probably because he knows that the eventual gains will outweigh the heartache.

I want to see Talin happy too. I think Hitari does make him happy right now, but I don't trust that he can sustain a happy marriage for the next fifty years.

That's what I worry about -- the long term. I think they have potential, but not as things stand... there are issues that have to be dealt with before they can be the kind of couple that can weather fifty years of breathing the same air.

But why not?  Belas are beautiful enough to be great Aesous

On the aesous thing, I'm not sure anyone can compete with Hitari, partially because I don't think it's entirely about beauty. We know that the previous royal artist's wife is no great beauty, but she has a beautiful voice, which (I assume) inspired a goodly number of musical scores. Hitari is the consummate model (part of what makes him so dangerous), to the point where Talin literally cannot stop painting him. There also seems to be a certain je ne sais quoi involved, something that none of the belas (thus far) have possessed to the point where Talin feels that same compulsion. Actually, the only one who has inspired Talin in a similar way is Xio Voe.

Panori has already proven himself a very good defender.

Dear god, I think you just made me ship Panori/Talin for a split second. Stop it! Although, Kudorin did say that Panori would need to learn to control his temper for some future event...

...

...

 

Stop it!

Anyway, stay strong Talin. Hitari should be worried about being good enough for you, not because of his background, but because of what he's done to you, and he should work hard to earn your love and trust.

I think he has earned it. But does he deserve it? Well, time will tell.

I only got the job because I speak French lol.  Though they were happy with the other languages.

How many languages do you speak? 

I don't think this analogy really works here. I'm not saying Hitari wasn't angry with Talin (we don't know that), I'm saying we don't know what his motives were. But whatever they were, we know he didn't mean the things he said, they were lies, he was aware that they were lies. We also know he loves Talin.

I agree with you, there might indeed be potential for a repeat performance. But, we will not know that until we know Hitari's motives in the first place. For now, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

The actions still exist, and they were hurtful to Talin, but based on what we know (he loves Talin, he never believed any of the mean things he said were true) and what we don't know (his motives, the possibility of extenuating circumstances), I think Hitari deserves a second chance.  The love is there, the commitment is there. There's potential for redemption and happiness. They need to work things out (whatever these things are).
I don't fully trust Hitari, but he deserves the chance to come out clean and earn that trust. 

If he f*cks up though: 

I didn't mean anger, specifically -- I more meant that Hitari's actions are, to an extent, inexcusable, irregardless of what his motives were. I really don't think there is an entirely justifiable motive for intentionally hurting the person that you love. His motives might make his actions more understandable, might allow us the readers to empathize more strongly with him than we already do, but they're not an excuse. Until we know what those motives were, and that they've been nullified in some way, I pretty much refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt.

(...just remembered that irregardless isn't really a word, but gosh darn it, I like it. )

Every time I hear about Hitari loving Talin, the words "he hits me because he loves me!" run through my head. I can't help it. The fact that he loves Talin doesn't carry a lot of weight with me, when it comes to predicting his future actions. He loved Talin before, and he still set out to hurt him:

           His back to the room, Hitari lowered his head.  “I loved you,” he said, “the only way I knew how.”  He put his hand on the doorknob.  “I still do,” he said, and left.

           [...]

            “He was telling the truth.”

            [...]

            “He doesn’t know how to show love, he doesn’t know how to express it, he doesn’t know how to nurture it, he barely knows how to feel it,” Selorin said.  “But, as much as Hitari can love anyone, he loves you.”

            - Chapter 27

Hitari's love doesn't seem to be much of a barrier to his being hurtful. And the fact that he didn't mean the cruel things he said makes it, in a way, worse to me. He wasn't saying things that he knew were cruel but really believed, he wasn't saying things that made sense to him in the heat of the moment even if he knew them to be untrue later, he was deliberately and carefully finding the things that he knew would sting the most and using them as weapons.

I'm not saying that I think Hitari hasn't changed at all; it's entirely possible that he has. I'm not saying that I think he and Talin won't end up together; they might, and if they do, it might be really good. But I continue to wonder if he's changed enough, and I worry that he still has the potential to revert to what he was before.

I think the real difference between our opinions is a glass-half-empty-half-full kind of deal -- you said that there's the potential for redemption and happiness, and I agree. I just think that it will be a long, hard road before Hitari gets to that point, if Hitari gets to that point, and, in the meantime, I don't really trust his actions or his honesty. I think he's up to something naughty right now, and when it comes to light, it's going to cause problems. The fact that he hasn't messed up in any major way since they got back together makes me cautious, since I think it's allowed Talin to ignore that whatever flaws were in Hitari when they were together before, and remained in him right up until Talin gave his ultimatum, are still there. They haven't really dealt with them, they've just suppressed them. We've gotten a change in behavior from Hitari, maybe even a change in mentality, but I'm yet to see anything that makes me think that the part of him that thought it was totally okay to lie and manipulate and hurt and steal has disappeared completely.

...hopefully that made some kind of sense. I'm in the midst of paper writing, and my brain isn't all here.  

I also trust that Kudorin would not endorse the relationship if it would truly harm one of his brothers .

I'm not sure about the whole Kudorin thing. He's omniscient. He might be seeing that it all turns out alright in the end  -- it doesn't mean that the immediate future is going to be all sunshine and peaches.

We don't know why Hitari said all of these horrible things to Talin. But what we do know, is that he didn't mean them (from dinner with Selorin). They were lies. What we do know, is that he truly, genuinely loves Talin (again Selorin has testified to that and we can see that from his interaction with Talin now).

I don't know. To me, that feels a little bit like saying, "so and-so spat on me when he passed me by on the street, but it's okay, because he wasn't really angry at me." Whatever Hitari's provocation was, the actions still exist. Also, as you said, we don't know why Hitari did what he did and, without knowing why, it's hard to say for sure that there's no potential for a repeat performance. Or, you know, something less harmful to Talin but equally misguided. I do like Hitari, I just don't trust him.

Everyone does NOT agree. 

True, that.

Honestly, I think that the fact that I really do like Hitari is more of a testament to Matthew's writing ability than it is to my belief that Hitari is reformed. I still don't trust him. I think he has potential, and I think that he and Talin have potential, but I also think that Hitari also has the potential to screw the pooch on this one. Royally. Completely.

Like Diamond said, I think I would feel a little better about Hitari if he and Talin had gone through some serious conflict since their reunion, and come out intact. I would feel better if we had seen some indication that the dark side of Hitari -- the side that was willing to hit Talin, insult him, use him, steal from him, undermine him, and try to have sex with his brothers, his belas, and a good chunk of the Anorian population -- was still there, and that Hitari was actively struggling to combat that side of himself. As it stands, his behavior is too smooth to put me completely at ease. I like that he's being considerate, but I don't trust it. There has to be a catch.

I'm hoping that Hitari and Talin end up together, but I'm not counting on it, and I certainly don't think it's going to be smooth sailing if they do, which is part of why I think that whatever Hitari is lying about right now, it's not something completely innocuous. I'm looking forward to eventually getting Hitari's POV (maybe?) because, for better or for worse, that will probably alter my opinion of him. For now, my vote is a solid, "I don't know, I don't trust him."

(In another moment of 'ITL fans on the phone,' I called Jae up right after I read the dinner scene with Talin, Hitari, and Selorin, and said, "I just kind of felt bad for Hitari. I feel dirty.")

Oh this is brilliant!  I never thought of that possibility, but it actually makes much more sense.

I don't see how/why that would be illegal though. It's wrong, but... I mean, why would he need to lie to Anosanim and Talin? About what? 

Because it's wrong, even if there are no intellectual property or industrial espionage laws in Orina Anoris (which there very well might be). I can't see Talin approving of Hitari's selling other people's ideas. As for why he would have to lie about it... well, what if Anosanim was gushing about some new design, and how innovative and creative it is, when Hatari really knows that someone else came up with the idea in the first place? Maybe not exactly that, but I could see how things he would have to lie about would worm their way into a conversation on fashion and work.

From the thread for ITL 124:

    *
      How to Tell They're Lying
      Patented Lie Detection Technology. LiarCard Is Easy & 95% Accurate!
      www.LiarCard.com
    *
      10 Signs of Cheating
      Is Your Partner Showing any of the 10 Signs of Cheating? Free Quiz
      www.MyDailyMoment.com
    *
      Why Do Men Lie To Women?
      Learn What Men Really Want & How To Find & Attract Lasting Love
      InsideAGuysMind.com
    *
      Identify Disguised Lies
      Interview / interrogation training Book / DVD Courses on lie detection
      IDLies.com

...maybe google is trying to tell us something.

I'm going to play off Falconer's point, because I think it has something to do with fashion, but I'm going to guess smuggling of ideas, not smuggling of clothing. He's in designers' workshops all the time -- he sees a lot of new, exciting fashion creations while they're still in the works, before they reach the public's eye. I wonder if he's been leaking information from one designer to another, and being paid for it. We've had a few instances within the text where someone guesses that an article of clothing, based on the style, belongs to one designer or another... and ends up guessing wrong.

From chapter 84:

The ribbons were exquisitely made.  “Teresaniko?” he guessed, seeing Teresaniko’s style in the design, knowing that Teresaniko often added touches of jewels to even the most basic of items.

“Koramo.”

Koramo?  This wasn’t in Koramo’s style at all.  Talin was going to have to pay more attention to new trends.

From chapter 117:

“Good morning,” Anosanim said, pleased to see him.  He was, as always, impeccably attired.  “I simply adore the cut of your jacket.  Such a surprise, to see Lo Hasemakare working in blue again.”

“Thank you.  This came from Lo Tesamekin, actually.”

Astonished, Anosanim ran his fingers over one of the lapels.  “You’re teasing me!  This is just in line with Lo Hasemakare’s style!”

“I know.  I was as surprised as you are,” Ritek said.  “But I got it from Tesamekin myself.”

What makes it especially interesting to me is that it's Talin and Anosanim -- if anyone would recognize a designer's signature style, it would be them.


(Credit to Jae for giving me the ribbons quote and helping me find the chapter numbers, because I'm organized enough to save quotes, but apparently not organized enough to write down what chapters they come from.)

Question for Rhia: Should Jae really be blaming the Wiki entirely for her unhingement?

I have no idea to what you refer. Jae is the picture of sanity. 

...don't hurt me.

Huh. I wonder if people's ability to lie to themselves would mess with his radar, then? I mean, say I am absolutely convinced that so-and-so committed a crime, even though so-and-so did no such thing. It wouldn't register as a lie, would it?

Then again, he would probably just ask so-and-so, and it would become a moot point.

Can he watch theater? I mean, that's basically people lying, albeit artistically and professionally. When an actor claims to be a poor orphaned pig farmer, when his parents are really perfectly alive and he's never seen a pig in his life, does it make Selorin's head hurt?

Oooh! Yeah, I remember the quote, I just didn't see it under LilacMajesty's avatar. Whoops. 

Always happy to see Orinakin, even after only minutes apart, Bade grinned at him.  “Heir Voe has offered to show us his laboratory.” He has another secret one he won’t let us into.  I don’t know why he has two, unless he just likes being mysterious.  The second one is probably where he stores his personality.

- Chapter 80

- Jae, who has clearly become unhinged by the Wiki

Become?

And I think Rhia totally got distracted by the mere thought of cakes, cookies, and pies.  :::snaps fingers in Rhia's face:::  FOCUS  They're aren't even made yet!

You know, providing a detailed list of the baked goods available so completely did not help.

...mmm, pies. 

...and I just realize that I have the same response to pie as I do to Adam Pascal. Hmm.

Poker, with candy to bet with? Maybe a movie night, if you can find something that everyone agrees with? Yard sales are always good, especially when you have multiple people contributing. I've done service auctions before for fundraisers, but I'm not sure what your community is like or how well that would work.

.... Just saw that! 

He made my water bubble!
 

Eh? Sorry, I might just be a bit dense at the end of the work week, but I didn't follow that. Who did what to what water? 

93:

Defeated, Desin groaned.  After years of hearing about Ritek stealing his friends’ partners, Desin was going to watch Ritek climb into bed with his younger brother.  If that wasn’t watching Ritek win the whole game, Desin didn’t know what was.  “I’m going to have to fuck his sisters,” Desin realized.  All of them.  And maybe some of his cousins.  “Is Sosu Parike married?”

...I'm afraid that the ones I remember best aren't the profound ones, but the ones that made me laugh like a hysterical hyena on drugs and startle the cats.

Yeah, my count seems to be stuck too, and I think Jae is having the same problem (or was last time we spoke). I don't particularly mind, but I wanted to toss that out there, if you're tracking it.