Poll: Hitari

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

You're welcome to discuss your votes here!

-Matthew

[mc_cart_ny]

I think that Hitari is definatly improving and is gettin' better all the time

Although listening to Orinakin and Selorin's conversation this past chapter (124) does worry me a bit.

But I do really like them together and am so happy for them!  I'm pretty nervous about the next couple of chapters and seeing everyones reactions...

~McCartny~

[LilacMajesty]

Its kind of ridiculous how nervous I am over this literary couple.  I'm even more invested in Talin and Hitari than I was in the Drewsome.

[anaskee]

Talin and Hitari, I think, has somehow fixed their own doubts and baggage about their feelings for each other.  If love and life is that easy then that's their HEA (happily ever after) right there.  But it's not    They have deal with other people and other issues: Hitari's father and his family for one.  They're the ones that broke Hitari in the first place and shaped him into who he is.  They have a big influence on Hitari's actions towards his relationships with Talin in the future. 

[Falconer]

He definitely deserves a second chance. Together Talin and him will work things out. 

[Quinntanna]

I find that every relationship is a work in progress... However, in the case of a couple coming back together after a break up you have to work double even triple hard at getting the trust back. And building that feeling of being one with each other is even harder to do when you have opposition to the relationship in the first place.  Add in the doubts and fears that it will end badly again and the pain of doing so... You either have to be very brave and faithful in the solidity of your relationship or a glutton for punishment and heartache.  I find Talin to be the former!!

[lelehtidazzio]

It's pretty clear from the poll results thus far that we are all pretty much on the same strain of thought when it comes to Hitari.  I know that Selorin is blessed with the gift of truth detecting but I think that in this case, he may be overreacting just a tad. Those two had a lot of shit--I mean stuff to work through, and they were able to do it.  I also think that although he did detect a lie in Hitari, in he and Anosanim's discussion on fashion, he probably caught the tail end if not snipets of a conversation and that he should give the man the benefit of the doubt.  He could have been lying to Anosanim to keep from hurting his feelings.

Anosanim: "Does this dress makes my butt look big, Hitari?"
Hitari: "No, not at all, Anosanim. You look like a waif in that dress, it's really quite flattering."

The truth:  The dress was extemely ugly that made Anosanim's ass look like the back of a mack truck.  And really...show of hands, how many of us have told that same lie?

...Raises my hand high.....

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Anosanim: "Does this dress makes my butt look big, Hitari?"
Hitari: "No, not at all, Anosanim. You look like a waif in that dress, it's really quite flattering."

I know you don't mean anything by that, but I don't like the idea that it's commonplace to worry about the size of your butt or want to look like a specific size/shape or not be happy with your body.  Let's try to speak positively about all body types.

-Matthew

[Diamond]

Everyone does NOT agree. 

Time for a good, sound Hitari rant. Feel free to skip this if you are all about Hitari. If you have questions or doubts, let me let you in on why Hitari is miles from husband material.

            “You must be relieved now that your inauguration ceremony’s on the horizon.”
            The word “relieved” seemed like an odd choice, and there was a subtle insinuation in the not-quite-smirk on Hitari’s lips.  Talin’s back tensed; here it came, the strike, the attack.

            But why was he on the defensive?  Yes, Hitari’s attack might hurt, might strike an unexpectedly painful blow, but he’d been through that before, and lived.  His bracelet grazed the side of his plate, and he thought of the rainbow.  Determined as he’d always been to handle life on his own, he was too old not to understand that his brothers would stand by him through anything.  He could imagine them with him now, grouped up behind him.  The image of it made him smile, as he pictured Desin standing with muscular arms crossed, Anosanim fretting, Remin reaching over his shoulder for a plate of dessert.

            Feeling calm again, back relaxing, knowing that Hitari wanted to pick a fight but knowing that he could handle it, he asked, casually, “Relieved?”  He knew that Hitari had wanted him to hit upon that word; why not indulge Hitari and see what happened?

            “Well,” Hitari said, with a knowing, condescending smile, “once you’re locked into place as the royal artist, and Anosanim’s installed as the royal architect, he won’t have much of a chance to upstage you anymore, will he?  I mean,” a forgiving chuckle, “you and I and everyone who’s seen his work knows that Anosanim’s the better artist, but the people at large aren’t aware of it yet, and if they don’t know by now, maybe they never will.  A stroke of luck, don’t you think?”

            It was clever of Hitari to hit upon what he knew was an unpleasantly sensitive spot, but Talin wouldn’t let that get to him.  “Prince Anosanim is very talented,” he said.  “In both my field and his own.”

            “That’s just the thing, isn’t it?” Hitari asked.  “Your field is his field.  His true field, anyway.  Anosanim has the soul of an artist.  And you, well, we’d all be much better served if you were putting buildings together instead of decorating them, wouldn’t we?”

            It took a slow, deep breath for Talin to be able to reply to that in an even tone.  “Do you question the gods?” he asked.

            “What I question is your future as our royal artist, and the future of this country under your leadership,” Hitari said.  “You don’t have Anosanim’s talent, you don’t have Desin’s head for figures, you don’t have Orinakin’s diplomacy.  What do you have, Talin?  A pretty number on the back of your hand?  Where is that going to get us?”  Sitting forward, Hitari lowered his voice, his expression a warning.  “I hope that you have the sense to establish a strong team under you, so that they can run things for you.  You’ll never be more than a figurehead, Talin.  If you-”

            “Excuse me,” Talin said, getting to his feet.  If he didn’t get out, get away, then he’d lose his temper and cause a scene, and he wouldn’t let Hitari do that to him.  He wouldn’t let anyone do that to him, not anymore.  “Thank you for your services,” he said to the stunned staff, and then he walked out.

            Leaving the restaurant blindly, he started down the sidewalk, ignoring the waiting carriage.  That low, treacherous snake!  Talin wanted to strike at him, scream at him, hurt him.  All of those accusations and insinuations had been lies, every single one of them, and he knew it, and Hitari knew it, but that wasn’t what mattered.  Hitari knew his weak spots, and knew just how to manipulate him, how to hurt him.  Hitari would’ve said anything to get a reaction, would’ve insulted his appearance, his brothers, his sexual proclivities, the way he chewed, anything.  The only thing Hitari had the sense not to attack directly was the pharaoh, although sometimes he risked it.[ITL 23.6]
 

Hitari knew how conflicted Talin was about his and Anosanim’s crossed talents. He knew that Talin was struggling with living up to generations of artists. He sat there with a smile on his face and questioned Talin’s ability to lead the country, and the gods’ decision to make him Anosadim! Days before the ascension! Had a commoner on the street said the same things it would have hurt less. The very fact that Hitari knows better than almost everyone how hard the whole thing already was on Talin, the fact that he didn’t believe it but still used it to hurt Talin, that’s why he can’t ever be trusted. He’s not only willing to hit below the belt, he deliberately aims all his punches there!
 

Talin is so private and doesn’t even open up to his brothers very often. To have Hitari throw his insecurities back at him is unconscionable. 

This scene shows the real Hitari. He may be sweet and carring now,  he might say all the right things and do everything it takes to get along with Talin, he may even love Talin with all his heart, but when things get rough, when he gets backed into a corner, when things aren’t so bright and sunny, he’ll resort to the same tactics. He will take all the things that Talin has opened up to him, all the whispered secrets of Talin’s heart,  every vulnerable point that Talin has exposed and use it against Talin. He will make insinuations, drop innuendoes, and hurl flat-out insults just to hurt Talin. He will do his dirtiest to cut as deep as possible.

It is unforgivable to me that nothing is off limits to him. From Talin’s relationship with Anosanim, to becoming the Royal Artist, to Anosukinom himself?! This man insults a living god to hurt Talin’s feelings! That’s just crazy.

There’s also this:

             “You can stop pretending,” Hitari told Panori.  “Really, Talin, did you expect me to be fooled by this little show?  I’ve had your dick, and I know how weak and ineffective it is.  No matter how much that eager little puppy barks, it can’t erase my dry, boring memories.”

            Before Talin could open his mouth, Panori had snatched up the damp washcloth from the basin and slapped Hitari across the face with it, a wet, sudden smack.  “How dare you speak to your prince that way?!”

            Shocked, Hitari spent one complete second in frozen astonishment.  Then ugly anger crossed his face, and he lunged.  Moving instinctively, Talin rolled, bringing Panori under himself, covering his bela’s body with his own.  Feeling angry fists strike his back, he twisted to deflect the blows with a raised forearm and kicked out, his foot landing squarely in Hitari’s abdomen and knocking Hitari back.  “Get out,” he ordered, fully prepared to strike, waiting for Hitari to make the wrong move.  “Go now, while you can.”  He could see Hitari’s hesitation, could see Hitari deciding to come at him again, and he put darkness into his voice, wanting Hitari to leave, not wanting the violence to escalate.  “You know the number of guards that will run to the sound of my voice.”

            Glaring venomously, Hitari backed up.  “You lured me here,” he said, his voice low and dark, “you lured me here and trapped me into this, you won’t blame me for what you’ve done to yourself.”  With a quick glance around, as if checking for witnesses, he bolted from the room, swift and silent. [ITL 18.13]

Once again, cruelly insulting and in this case physically violent. Even blaming Talin for bringing it on himself. And Panori is right, Talin is a child of Hitari’s gods and Hitari’s prince! Talin deserves better than the crap you pulled on your other boyfriends because of his birthright if nothing else.  Familiarity doesn’t give him the right to be shown the worst kind of disrespect to a man conceived in the womb of a deity! 


This just proves nothing is off limits. Talin can’t ever truly trust Hitari because if they get married then he’ll spend the rest of his life wondering to himself, “If I tell Hitari this, when will he throw it back in my face?”   It makes me sad just to think about it. 


If after their reunion I had seen them go through some problems and weather them well, I would trust him. I’d be on the Talin/Hitari bandwagon but I can’t even begin to try. 

They’d be in for trouble here, but being Anorian it’s worse. In Orina Anoris they place a lot of importance on building a strong foundation for a marriage.  Love is only the first of many things a couple needs to have in common. That’s why you have to be interviewed by a priest. It isn’t just a blessing as a formality, it’s like couples’ counseling. Everyone in the whole country is required to sit down and take a good look at their relationship with a third party and really evaluate whether or not they have built a relationship strong enough to sustain a marriage.

I don’t think they’ve done that, and I don’t think Hitari is capable of it. I think that things are going well because he’s on his best behavior and he hasn’t been provoked. Most relationships are great when you agree, but I want to see them resolve something that they are fundamentally at odds about before I throw red flower petals at the wedding.

- Diamond

[Rhia]

Everyone does NOT agree. 

True, that.

Honestly, I think that the fact that I really do like Hitari is more of a testament to Matthew's writing ability than it is to my belief that Hitari is reformed. I still don't trust him. I think he has potential, and I think that he and Talin have potential, but I also think that Hitari also has the potential to screw the pooch on this one. Royally. Completely.

Like Diamond said, I think I would feel a little better about Hitari if he and Talin had gone through some serious conflict since their reunion, and come out intact. I would feel better if we had seen some indication that the dark side of Hitari -- the side that was willing to hit Talin, insult him, use him, steal from him, undermine him, and try to have sex with his brothers, his belas, and a good chunk of the Anorian population -- was still there, and that Hitari was actively struggling to combat that side of himself. As it stands, his behavior is too smooth to put me completely at ease. I like that he's being considerate, but I don't trust it. There has to be a catch.

I'm hoping that Hitari and Talin end up together, but I'm not counting on it, and I certainly don't think it's going to be smooth sailing if they do, which is part of why I think that whatever Hitari is lying about right now, it's not something completely innocuous. I'm looking forward to eventually getting Hitari's POV (maybe?) because, for better or for worse, that will probably alter my opinion of him. For now, my vote is a solid, "I don't know, I don't trust him."

(In another moment of 'ITL fans on the phone,' I called Jae up right after I read the dinner scene with Talin, Hitari, and Selorin, and said, "I just kind of felt bad for Hitari. I feel dirty.")

[Falconer]

Quick word:

We don't know why Hitari said all of these horrible things to Talin. But what we do know, is that he didn't mean them (from dinner with Selorin). They were lies. What we do know, is that he truly, genuinely loves Talin (again Selorin has testified to that and we can see that from his interaction with Talin now).

The Hitari who used to throw Talin's insecurities back at him? He was putting on a show. He was lying. The Hitari who supports Talin, who cares for him, who loves him, is real. We still need  an explanation for his earlier behavior, for his lies, for the reason behind it all, and there might be things we still don't know about the Hitari we see now, but Talin and him are in love, and they can work things out (if they don't come out before) during their married life. Nothing wrong with that.

[Rhia]

We don't know why Hitari said all of these horrible things to Talin. But what we do know, is that he didn't mean them (from dinner with Selorin). They were lies. What we do know, is that he truly, genuinely loves Talin (again Selorin has testified to that and we can see that from his interaction with Talin now).

I don't know. To me, that feels a little bit like saying, "so and-so spat on me when he passed me by on the street, but it's okay, because he wasn't really angry at me." Whatever Hitari's provocation was, the actions still exist. Also, as you said, we don't know why Hitari did what he did and, without knowing why, it's hard to say for sure that there's no potential for a repeat performance. Or, you know, something less harmful to Talin but equally misguided. I do like Hitari, I just don't trust him.

[Falconer]

I don't know. To me, that feels a little bit like saying, "so and-so spat on me when he passed me by on the street, but it's okay, because he wasn't really angry at me." Whatever Hitari's provocation was, the actions still exist. Also, as you said, we don't know why Hitari did what he did and, without knowing why, it's hard to say for sure that there's no potential for a repeat performance. Or, you know, something less harmful to Talin but equally misguided. I do like Hitari, I just don't trust him.

I don't think this analogy really works here. I'm not saying Hitari wasn't angry with Talin (we don't know that), I'm saying we don't know what his motives were. But whatever they were, we know he didn't mean the things he said, they were lies, he was aware that they were lies. We also know he loves Talin.

I agree with you, there might indeed be potential for a repeat performance. But, we will not know that until we know Hitari's motives in the first place. For now, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

The actions still exist, and they were hurtful to Talin, but based on what we know (he loves Talin, he never believed any of the mean things he said were true) and what we don't know (his motives, the possibility of extenuating circumstances), I think Hitari deserves a second chance.  The love is there, the commitment is there. There's potential for redemption and happiness. They need to work things out (whatever these things are).
I don't fully trust Hitari, but he deserves the chance to come out clean and earn that trust. 

If he f*cks up though: 

[Quinntanna]

I have to honestly say that I am not really sure if I am cheering for Hitari or not... its more the point that I am cheering for Talin and his happiness .  If Hitari makes Talin Truly Happy then I am all for him .  I also trust that Kudorin would not endorse the relationship if it would truly harm one of his brothers .

[Rhia]

I don't think this analogy really works here. I'm not saying Hitari wasn't angry with Talin (we don't know that), I'm saying we don't know what his motives were. But whatever they were, we know he didn't mean the things he said, they were lies, he was aware that they were lies. We also know he loves Talin.

I agree with you, there might indeed be potential for a repeat performance. But, we will not know that until we know Hitari's motives in the first place. For now, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

The actions still exist, and they were hurtful to Talin, but based on what we know (he loves Talin, he never believed any of the mean things he said were true) and what we don't know (his motives, the possibility of extenuating circumstances), I think Hitari deserves a second chance.  The love is there, the commitment is there. There's potential for redemption and happiness. They need to work things out (whatever these things are).
I don't fully trust Hitari, but he deserves the chance to come out clean and earn that trust. 

If he f*cks up though: 

I didn't mean anger, specifically -- I more meant that Hitari's actions are, to an extent, inexcusable, irregardless of what his motives were. I really don't think there is an entirely justifiable motive for intentionally hurting the person that you love. His motives might make his actions more understandable, might allow us the readers to empathize more strongly with him than we already do, but they're not an excuse. Until we know what those motives were, and that they've been nullified in some way, I pretty much refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt.

(...just remembered that irregardless isn't really a word, but gosh darn it, I like it. )

Every time I hear about Hitari loving Talin, the words "he hits me because he loves me!" run through my head. I can't help it. The fact that he loves Talin doesn't carry a lot of weight with me, when it comes to predicting his future actions. He loved Talin before, and he still set out to hurt him:

           His back to the room, Hitari lowered his head.  “I loved you,” he said, “the only way I knew how.”  He put his hand on the doorknob.  “I still do,” he said, and left.

           [...]

            “He was telling the truth.”

            [...]

            “He doesn’t know how to show love, he doesn’t know how to express it, he doesn’t know how to nurture it, he barely knows how to feel it,” Selorin said.  “But, as much as Hitari can love anyone, he loves you.”

            - Chapter 27

Hitari's love doesn't seem to be much of a barrier to his being hurtful. And the fact that he didn't mean the cruel things he said makes it, in a way, worse to me. He wasn't saying things that he knew were cruel but really believed, he wasn't saying things that made sense to him in the heat of the moment even if he knew them to be untrue later, he was deliberately and carefully finding the things that he knew would sting the most and using them as weapons.

I'm not saying that I think Hitari hasn't changed at all; it's entirely possible that he has. I'm not saying that I think he and Talin won't end up together; they might, and if they do, it might be really good. But I continue to wonder if he's changed enough, and I worry that he still has the potential to revert to what he was before.

I think the real difference between our opinions is a glass-half-empty-half-full kind of deal -- you said that there's the potential for redemption and happiness, and I agree. I just think that it will be a long, hard road before Hitari gets to that point, if Hitari gets to that point, and, in the meantime, I don't really trust his actions or his honesty. I think he's up to something naughty right now, and when it comes to light, it's going to cause problems. The fact that he hasn't messed up in any major way since they got back together makes me cautious, since I think it's allowed Talin to ignore that whatever flaws were in Hitari when they were together before, and remained in him right up until Talin gave his ultimatum, are still there. They haven't really dealt with them, they've just suppressed them. We've gotten a change in behavior from Hitari, maybe even a change in mentality, but I'm yet to see anything that makes me think that the part of him that thought it was totally okay to lie and manipulate and hurt and steal has disappeared completely.

...hopefully that made some kind of sense. I'm in the midst of paper writing, and my brain isn't all here.  

I also trust that Kudorin would not endorse the relationship if it would truly harm one of his brothers .

I'm not sure about the whole Kudorin thing. He's omniscient. He might be seeing that it all turns out alright in the end  -- it doesn't mean that the immediate future is going to be all sunshine and peaches.

[Diamond]

Rhia, I agree with everything you said. 

I didn't mean anger, specifically -- I more meant that Hitari's actions are, to an extent, inexcusable, irregardless of what his motives were. I really don't think there is an entirely justifiable motive for intentionally hurting the person that you love.

That's what I'm saying! You should attack your enemies, not your loved ones. You would use personal information against someone you hate not someone you are in love with. The fact that he deals with pressure by lashing out is a problem. Talin deserves better for a lifetime commitment.

Every time I hear about Hitari loving Talin, the words "he hits me because he loves me!" run through my head. I can't help it. The fact that he loves Talin doesn't carry a lot of weight with me, when it comes to predicting his future actions. He loved Talin before, and he still set out to hurt him:

Exactly. It's abusive behavior. If my friend came to me for advice I would never say, "Well, he only did that to make you suffer, but he loves you, so that's what counts." I would say, "The fact that he loves you should make him want to protect you, not try to hurt you. Apparently to him love isn't enough to treat you well, so why should it be enough for you to stay." 

Talin didn't accept the situation as it was and let it continue. He didn't let Hitari continue to hurt him over and over. He put his foot down and things got better. I just don't know if the new happiness they have created can take real pressure, and it makes me wary.

Hitari's love doesn't seem to be much of a barrier to his being hurtful. And the fact that he didn't mean the cruel things he said makes it, in a way, worse to me. He wasn't saying things that he knew were cruel but really believed, he wasn't saying things that made sense to him in the heat of the moment even if he knew them to be untrue later, he was deliberately and carefully finding the things that he knew would sting the most and using them as weapons.

Thank you! The cruelty involved in saying those exact words to Talin of all people, with full knowledge of the entire back story of Talin's life, was flabbergasting. And to say it in such a flippant tone, as though it really was just an inconvenient opinion, the gall! He may as well have stabbed his steak knife through Talin's hand pinning it to the dinner table and then finished his meal with a smile. He was absolutely heartless. 

I'm not sure about the whole Kudorin thing. He's omniscient. He might be seeing that it all turns out alright in the end  -- it doesn't mean that the immediate future is going to be all sunshine and peaches.

Kudorin wouldn't stop Talin from suffering heartbreak now, just like he didn't before. Some things we just have to go through as part of the human experience. I think Kudorin is trying to give him better ways to cope with things emotionally, whether trouble comes now or later on.

I have to honestly say that I am not really sure if I am cheering for Hitari or not... its more the point that I am cheering for Talin and his happiness .  If Hitari makes Talin Truly Happy then I am all for him . 

I want to see Talin happy too. I think Hitari does make him happy right now, but I don't trust that he can sustain a happy marriage for the next fifty years. I want him to end up with someone who has all the good qualities that fit Talin and normal bad habits like leaving clumps of toothpaste in the sink. Not someone who rips your heart out just because he can.

You know, everyone keeps wondering if Selorin will end up with a bela. What if Talin does? He's the one who told Anosanim that he needed a real relationship because belas don't count. So what if one of the belas comforts his broken heart so well that the realizes that his earlier opinion of belas couldn't be further from the truth. Even though things were supposed to be just physical, they fall in love  and then - - I'm writing a romance novel book jacket now, so let me back up.

But why not?  Belas are beautiful enough to be great Aesous, they obviously love lots of sex (we've seen Talin's active libido), they already live in the palace so no commute, the Lesis are very caring,  loving, and nurturing(Talin might be partial to a caretaker due to Anosanim), and best of all, they are discreet and they understand that princes should be cared for at all times. Panori has already proven himself a very good defender.


Anyway, stay strong Talin. Hitari should be worried about being good enough for you, not because of his background, but because of what he's done to you, and he should work hard to earn your love and trust.

- Diamond

[Rhia]

Rhia, I agree with everything you said. 

Yay!

That's what I'm saying! You should attack your enemies, not your loved ones. You would use personal information against someone you hate not someone you are in love with. The fact that he deals with pressure by lashing out is a problem. Talin deserves better for a lifetime commitment.

Exactly. I mean, it's debatable whether you should say something like that to someone you despise, much less someone you love. It's a little sad for Hitari, that his wires are twisted up to the point where he reacts like that (and yes, I use present tense, mostly because I feel that at least some of his current good behavior is a result of him being a consummate actor, the ultimate model, as well as what is perhaps an honest desire to improve for Talin). I'm not saying that Hitari can't or won't be the "better" lifetime commitment for Talin, but I still think he has a long way to go, because I still read the good behavior he's showing now as suppression as much as anything else. It's too good, for someone who used to behave so badly.

Exactly. It's abusive behavior. If my friend came to me for advice I would never say, "Well, he only did that to make you suffer, but he loves you, so that's what counts." I would say, "The fact that he loves you should make him want to protect you, not try to hurt you. Apparently to him love isn't enough to treat you well, so why should it be enough for you to stay." 

Yes! Honestly, when I first read Talin's decision to try things with Hitari again, I felt very sketchy about it, because it really did make me think of an abusee returning to an abuser. I would never, ever council someone to return to a boyfriend who had treated them as poorly as Hitari treated Talin. The fact that I feel better about it now is primarily the result of effective writing... their current interactions have lulled me, to an extent, just like I feel they've lulled Talin. At the same time, current good behavior doesn't negate past bad behavior, and I still feel like that hasn't been 100% resolved. I don't think they've dealt with Hitari's issues as a couple, which is a good deal of what's behind my current wariness -- I keep waiting for the shit to hit the fan.

Talin didn't accept the situation as it was and let it continue. He didn't let Hitari continue to hurt him over and over. He put his foot down and things got better. I just don't know if the new happiness they have created can take real pressure, and it makes me wary.

Talin's ultimatum was the catalyst for Hitari's current upwards trend, but that trend hasn't really been challenged. Until it is, there's no way to tell how solid they really are as a couple.

Thank you! The cruelty involved in saying those exact words to Talin of all people, with full knowledge of the entire back story of Talin's life, was flabbergasting. And to say it in such a flippant tone, as though it really was just an inconvenient opinion, the gall! He may as well have stabbed his steak knife through Talin's hand pinning it to the dinner table and then finished his meal with a smile. He was absolutely heartless. 

I'm not sure about heartless -- you don't put that much effort into hurting someone unless you feel something. But, like Selorin said, Hitari barely knows how to feel love, much less express it. Talin putting his foot down wasn't the magic wand that suddenly gave Hitari the ability to experience and express his love in a healthy way... it just made him realize that the way he has been expressing it would not be tolerated, no ifs, ands, or buts. I think he's been trying for Talin's sake, but I also think that a lot of what he's been doing is acting how Talin wants him to act, pushing back his natural impulses, rather than dealing with his demons and really learning that this is the right way to act towards someone you feel affection for. Of course, that's just my theory, but the change was too smooth and too sudden for me to believe that Hitari actually, really gets it.

Kudorin wouldn't stop Talin from suffering heartbreak now, just like he didn't before. Some things we just have to go through as part of the human experience. I think Kudorin is trying to give him better ways to cope with things emotionally, whether trouble comes now or later on.

With both Rini and Talin, Kudorin says there will be pain, but he doesn't stop it, probably because he knows that the eventual gains will outweigh the heartache.

I want to see Talin happy too. I think Hitari does make him happy right now, but I don't trust that he can sustain a happy marriage for the next fifty years.

That's what I worry about -- the long term. I think they have potential, but not as things stand... there are issues that have to be dealt with before they can be the kind of couple that can weather fifty years of breathing the same air.

But why not?  Belas are beautiful enough to be great Aesous

On the aesous thing, I'm not sure anyone can compete with Hitari, partially because I don't think it's entirely about beauty. We know that the previous royal artist's wife is no great beauty, but she has a beautiful voice, which (I assume) inspired a goodly number of musical scores. Hitari is the consummate model (part of what makes him so dangerous), to the point where Talin literally cannot stop painting him. There also seems to be a certain je ne sais quoi involved, something that none of the belas (thus far) have possessed to the point where Talin feels that same compulsion. Actually, the only one who has inspired Talin in a similar way is Xio Voe.

Panori has already proven himself a very good defender.

Dear god, I think you just made me ship Panori/Talin for a split second. Stop it! Although, Kudorin did say that Panori would need to learn to control his temper for some future event...

...

...

 

Stop it!

Anyway, stay strong Talin. Hitari should be worried about being good enough for you, not because of his background, but because of what he's done to you, and he should work hard to earn your love and trust.

I think he has earned it. But does he deserve it? Well, time will tell.

[Falconer]

It seems we are all rooting for whatever makes Talin happy and fulfilled.  For the rest, as Rhia said, time will tell.

[LilacMajesty]

First of all - let me just say I absolutely respect everyone's opinions on this matter.  You all have given me a lot to think about.  I want to trust Hitari so badly because I believe that he grew up emotionally abused.  His father claimed to love him, and look what he put Hitari through.  I'm betting that somewhere in the back of his mind, Hitari believes (or at least used to believe) that Talin was going to hurt him badly and he wanted to hurt him first.  I'm really hoping that he's gotten past that now.  I also believe we have to trust in what Anosukinom said "Remember to believe", and in Anosanim's instincts. 

[TaraAngelX]

I was just starting to let this board (and the story) convince me that Hitari might be the person we want him to be for Talin... until the last chapter.

Now it all came rushing back. I just want Talin to be happy - and they love each other - but I don't think this is going to be it. Talin is going to give it his all. He is going to try and try and try with Hitari but all those concerns that Anosanim had in the carriage ride home... They are valid. They are real. And I really think we are going to find out what has been happening behind the scenes.

[Falconer]

And I really think we are going to find out what has been happening behind the scenes.

Yeah, I really want to find out!!

[LDoza]

And I really think we are going to find out what has been happening behind the scenes.

Yeah, I really want to find out!!

I don't think I do. 

[SilverMoon28]

*sob* I don't know how I feel about Hitari now!!  I thought he was back with Talin for good but now that I've seen people's reactions to Talin's proposal, I don't know what to think anymore!

I think he deserves the second chance but, of course, Ilanosa isn't going to bless the marriage if there's a problem.

Vani

[anaskee]

*sob* I don't know how I feel about Hitari now!!  I thought he was back with Talin for good but now that I've seen people's reactions to Talin's proposal, I don't know what to think anymore!

I think he deserves the second chance but, of course, Ilanosa isn't going to bless the marriage if there's a problem.

Vani

My thought exactly!  I guess we just have to find out what happens

[SilverMoon28]

I want Talin and Hitari to be together!!  But now I don't think it's going to happen unless Matthew has a surprise for us...

[anaskee]

I want Talin and Hitari to be together!!  But now I don't think it's going to happen unless Matthew has a surprise for us...

I'm helplessly optimistic so here's why I still have hope:  Hitari has been with us almost since the beginning.  We're with him and Talin throughout the entire tempestuous, heartbreaking, nail-biting, passionate affair.  We're in chapter 125 and it's still Hitari and Talin.  Now I'm thinking, Matthew wouldn't be cruel enough to break Talin and Hitari apart, would he?  You won't, right Matthew? 

Now, if there's a chance that they're not meant to get married right now,  I'm thinking maybe Matthew will break them apart and leave Talin's book as last.  But really Matthew, no!    Okay,  so I'm still hoping, in the end, Hitari would come back, all patched up and ready for Talin, and....they'll live happily ever after   Really, I can't see them not being together in the end.

[LilacMajesty]

If Matthew breaks Talin and Hitari up, he's gonna have to pay for my funeral.

[Dena]

Hitari and Talin started out being the couple I cared the least about, because Hitari's falseness made me dislike him, which made it hard to invest in the relationship.  As things went on though, I started to become fascinated not just by Hitari himself, but by their relationship.  It seemed like they existed so much on things that went unsaid, and what was between the lines.  Talin isn't talkative, and he doesn't look for words from Hitari because he's learned not to trust them in the past anyway.  Instead he reads his answers in expressions and body language.  And the question becomes is that even a little accurate when Hitari is a master of those things anyway?  How much more true are the moments of vulnerability and imperfect body arrangements than the perfectly posed moments, when Hitari undoubtedly knows the power of appearing to slip, anyway? 

I think that the fact that Hitari loves Talin can't be in question - Selorin verified it.  But Selorin said, if I remember correctly, something along the lines of "as much as he's capable of".  How much is that?  A real marriage and relationship, partners come to know everything about the other person, and when they don't - it doesn't work.  Hitari is a master of masks, I don't know that he's capable of ever really dropping them.  I think he's genuinely trying, but I don't think he thinks the way that most Anorians do.  And I think he's very aware of just how TALIN thinks, and is perfectly aware of how to manipulate it - even in a non-malicious sense. 

The corollary to that, though, is that I think Talin lets him.  Talin loves Hitari, but how often does he think of Hitari as his muse, as living art?  He knows how much Hitari hides and while I think he believes he knows the real Hitari, I don't think even he really thinks that he knows all of Hitari, or knows how Hitari really thinks.  He's passionate and I think sometimes more in love with the idea of the perfect, beautiful, perfect soulmate muse than he is with the actual Hitari.  How much of what he loves in Hitari is actually Hitari, and how much is what he's invented Hitari to be?

Overall - I'm waiting to see.  I think that their marriage being blessed was an indication that there's potential there maybe, but I don't think either's ready.  I think Hitari has to learn who he really is, and then show Talin, and I think Talin needs to learn to see the person inside the art more, and to separate the passionate ideals (Because even the idea of the fated, cruelly beautiful lover is artistic - a ready-built epic love opera or something) from the reality of a lifelong relationship with someone where you have to trust them in all aspects of life, and they have to be ready to trust you. 

I won't be disappointed if they break up.  I won't be disappointed if they stay together.  I'm just interested to see how they get to wherever they're going!

[Falconer]

At this point, I think Hitari's real (about Talin). During the last couple of chapters, Kudorin attested to that. Hitari has changed, and his behavior right now with regards to Talin cannot be questioned.

I really don't think he's faking his physical reactions (the ones that Talin's interpreting). Sometimes, when Talin's looking at him, he's not even aware of that. He's not even aware of how much Talin's seeing behind his reactions, his gestures. I remember the way he reacted when Talin mentioned marriage for the first time (when they came back from Satatunin). He couldn't have faked that.

Hitari is an actor, yes, that is what people (I think it was Anosanim?) have been saying. He put on quite a show before, when he was purposefully hurting Talin by telling him all sorts of bad things.  However, I think that if, before, Talin had tried to read him physically, as he is doing now, he would have realized that Hitari was lying, that he didn't really mean the hurtful things he was saying. Talin and Anosanim think of Hitari as a good actor because they weren't seeing (couldn't see) past his words and his flirty words. Talin's working on that now.

I love how the roles have been switched: Before Talin was vulnerable, and Hitari had an edge over him. Now though, Hitari's more vulnerable. He cannot --or chooses not to-- hide behind his "bad-ass bastard act". Talin's the one "in power" (though that's not quite the best way to say it).

I think that Talin's obsession with Hitari cheating on him before came from the fact that he didn't understand Hitari's flirty ways as part of Hitari's nature. That's how Kudorin sees it, and that's how Talin is learning to view it now. He's starting to understand that Hitari is flirting, not because he "wants" these guys or is propositioning them, but because that's how he is, that's how he approaches people.

Of course, there are a lot of questions yet to be answered: about the extent to which Hitari's father's behavior/teachings have affected him, about Hitari's sister, about Hitari's jobs, the lies Selorin caught him saying etc. However, I don't think it has to do with Talin directly. When it comes to Talin, I think Hitari has come clean. Still, we need an explanation for WHY he hurt Talin the way he did in the past. He's changed now, but what about the past? This is still to be explored.

I would be heartbroken if they were to break up again. The peace and balance they've reached now in their relationship seem so fragile... They must make it work. 

[LilacMajesty]

I won't be disappointed if they break up.  I won't be disappointed if they stay together.  I'm just interested to see how they get to wherever they're going!

You are fired Dena!  (By the way - welcome to our chaos!)

[Dena]

You are fired Dena!  (By the way - welcome to our chaos!)

Uh oh.  No firm stance means a firing?  Durn.  I hadn't even gotten a paycheck yet. . .

At this point, I think Hitari's real (about Talin).

I do too.  But I don't know how hmmm. . . . if being real is enough?  Some people can love someone, but still be too crippled to ever really give enough of themselves to work long-term, and I think the question with Hitari is whether or not he can, and if he is, whether or not he needs more time to grow into himself before he can.  I think he wants to.  I definitely believe he loves Talin.  But I think there's a part of Hitari that can never quite stop plotting and figuring the angles, too, and he hasn't figured out how to turn that off.  I think that's why Selorin heard him lying - truth is showing too much, and Hitari's instincts are to hide and create illusions around himself.  But that's just my interpretation of course.

I remember the way he reacted when Talin mentioned marriage for the first time (when they came back from Satatunin). He couldn't have faked that.

There's a difference between faking and calculation, and while I do think that was a genuine reaction, I think there's always a chance that what we see doesn't quite equal what we get with Hitari.  To me it's like ummm. . . bad analogy, but I have a friend who's deaf, and people who live with her instinctively always wait a second before answering anything to turn and make sure she can see their lips, or their hands.  She has an implant now and can hear pretty well - but they still do it.  Hitari I think always has that moment where he weighs his reactions.  He HAS them, but he's got that automatic need to check everything he does, filter it through how he wants to be perceived.  He wants to be seen as honest and loving with Talin - which he is, on the latter - so for the most part I think he's trying to let the actual real reaction sift through the filter.  But he can't always let himself without wanting to alter how he's been seen - hence the little unimportant lies Selorin heard.  I don't by any means hate Hitari.  I like him, actually, and find him interesting.  But I think he's a difficult man, and it isn't easy to know who he really is, and even Hitari isn't always sure.  Perpetual liars get caught up in their own illusions, and Hitari has been a liar for a LONG time.  It's hard to just switch gears, even when you sincerely want to do just that.

I think that Talin's obsession with Hitari cheating on him before came from the fact that he didn't understand Hitari's flirty ways as part of Hitari's nature.

I got the impression from the text that the flirting was definitely there, but so were outright propositions toward his brothers - they all flirt their ass off, so I think they'd recognize the difference between being flirted with and someone who would hop in bed if they gave the nod, really.  And I got the impression there was actual documented cheating - to get ahead at his job and such.  But I might be mistaken!

The peace and balance they've reached now in their relationship seem so fragile... They must make it work.

Hee, well for your sake I'll root for them!  I find the relationship interesting from any angle, whatever resolution.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I really want to join in here and add my two cents, but I don't want to skew opinions, so I'll stay out of it.  But, good discussion!  Thanks for joining us, Dena.

-Matthew

[JaeFire]

I got the impression from the text that the flirting was definitely there, but so were outright propositions toward his brothers - they all flirt their ass off, so I think they'd recognize the difference between being flirted with and someone who would hop in bed if they gave the nod, really.  And I got the impression there was actual documented cheating - to get ahead at his job and such.  But I might be mistaken!

Actually, you're totally right.  He tried, actively, to seduce all the Siblings--including the pharoah.  He also cheated.  A lot.

--------------------------------
Ch.13
            "Oh, come on, give me a better reaction than that,” Rini said.  “I think that Talin’s crazy, but apparently it was Kudorin’s idea, and Anosanim says that it’ll help.  Hitari’s sexy, but he’s also manipulative and treacherous and bad for Talin.  Do you remember when he tried to seduce Remin?”

            Not feeling any more calm, Selorin opened his eyes.  “He tried to seduce all of us.”

            “Well, yeah, but most people know better than to approach the royal high priest, out of respect.”

            “Most people also know better than to approach the sitting pharaoh, who can’t be touched and, being a god, is disinclined to betray his brother.”

            “He tried to seduce me so many times, I almost just gave in and let him, to get it over with,” Rini said.  “Every time I mentioned it to Talin, Hitari said that it was all in my mind.”

            “Yes, well, Hitari is very…special,” Selorin said, his gaze drifting, his expression darkening.  “I would rather not have him in Talin’s life again.”

--------------------------------
Ch.12
            “And you know why,” Anosanim said quietly, sliding closer, his hand on the tense, knotted muscles of Talin’s back.  “Because you miss Hitari, and as different as Etaki is, you found some of those same traits in him.  When Hitari-”

            A swirl of red, and Talin was off of the bed, glaring viciously at Anosanim.  “That lying, manipulative, faithless, treacherous, mendacious swindler is as offensive to me as a false god.  He cared for me, yes, and he also cared for himself, and for numerous, multiple men on any given day.  I will not commit myself to anyone who promises to be true to me, who vows that he will stay honest for me, who whispers that I am the one and only lover in his life, and then entertains other men while my back is turned.”

--------------------------------
Ch.15
            “If you don’t trust in Talin’s judgment, at least you could trust in Kudorin’s,” Anosanim snapped, obviously sensitive on the subject.

            “What I don’t trust is the man who charmed jewels from Talin’s hand and distributed them among his lovers,” Selorin said quietly from behind Desin.  “Come, we mustn’t be late.”

            “Selorin’s right,” Talin said, finally appearing, setting a box of paints on the tabletop and taking a gold-and-red cuff from Anosanim, fastening it around his wrist.  “Desin’s correct, as well, but I know that I can handle my duties and Hitari at the same time.”  He closed a second cuff around his other wrist as Anosanim sprayed a fine mist of perfume.  “Let’s go.”

--------------------------------

And I think it's pretty clear from this scene that Hitari hurt Talin, deliberately.  If it's part of his "flirty nature," I think it's even worse.
--------------------------------
Ch.27
            “I never meant to hurt you,” Hitari protested.

            “Untrue.”

            Hitari began again.  “He didn’t mean anything to me, none of them meant anything to me. I put you first, I always put you first, I-”

           “Untrue.”

            Hitari shifted in his chair as he glared at Selorin.  Returning his gaze to Talin, he said, “You had the world kissing your feet, you had men everywhere, and belas, and admirers, and I knew that I couldn’t compete with that, I knew that at any second you could leave me for any of them.”  Lowering his voice, lowering his gaze, his expression perfectly evoking private shame, he continued, “And then Anosanim made that pass at me, and-”

            “Untrue.”

            “Would you shut up?!” Hitari demanded, switching from shame to fury in an instant.

--------------------------------

I don't have time to say much more about it, but I wanted to say: Welcome!  I'm loving all your posts and I'm glad you could join us!  (I'm usually pretty active on the board, but I'm on hiatus because I'm graduating from college and I'm still in the midst of Finals.  I can't resist posting on occasion, however.)  Anyway, I'm enjoying your analysis so much.  I hope you stay!

- Jae

[Dena]

I really want to join in here and add my two cents, but I don't want to skew opinions, so I'll stay out of it.  But, good discussion!  Thanks for joining us, Dena.

-Matthew

Oh man, I am so not used to having actual authors see my nattering about the text.  lol.  I'm used to fandom.  But thank you!  I'm enjoying reading everyone's opinions and such.

And I think it's pretty clear from this scene that Hitari hurt Talin, deliberately.  If it's part of his "flirty nature," I think it's even worse.

I think that's separate from the flirty nature, personally, and might even be in part a defense mechanism.  He did love Talin, which made him feel vulnerable for the first time - he was used to a life where he looked to get ahead and mostly only cared for himself.  Trying to hurt him was a way to counteract his own vulnerability and possibly an attempt at self-sabatoge - end things before he got more invested, and it turned into a spiral where he did worse and worse things, and Talin stayed with him, and Hitari hated himself for doing it, and hated himself for caring, and it went on and on until finally Talin broke it off.  But that's more or less me wildly extrapolating.  heh.

Anyway, I'm enjoying your analysis so much.  I hope you stay!

Aww, thank you so much!  I'm enjoying reading everything and babbling about it.  I was having a great time babbling in PM's over on livejournal with Falconer, so it's awesome to get to chat with more people, and everyone seems nice and there's nothing like shared squee. 

[Falconer]

I think that's separate from the flirty nature, personally, and might even be in part a defense mechanism.  He did love Talin, which made him feel vulnerable for the first time - he was used to a life where he looked to get ahead and mostly only cared for himself.  Trying to hurt him was a way to counteract his own vulnerability and possibly an attempt at self-sabatoge - end things before he got more invested, and it turned into a spiral where he did worse and worse things, and Talin stayed with him, and Hitari hated himself for doing it, and hated himself for caring, and it went on and on until finally Talin broke it off.

Yes! That's my next point actually. 

As I said before, I do think that Hitari purposefully hurt Talin. He’s done all of these things, right? Lied, cheated, etc. However, he’s a good actor, and until now Talin didn’t really try to read past his “acting”, and we don’t know what Kudorin saw before, so how do we know that his lies, his infidelity weren’t born out of insecurities? We mustn’t take everything at face value. Hitari’s messed up. He has low self-esteem. We’ve seen this in Kudorin’s book, how scared he is of not being worthy of Talin. He’s admitted to it, Kudorin has said it. And during the conversation Jae quoted (the one with Selorin), Hitari said, “You had the world kissing your feet, you had men everywhere, and belas, and admirers, and I knew that I couldn’t compete with that, I knew that at any second you could leave me for any of them.” [27.10] So his affairs could have been a way for him to gain an edge on Talin, or to show Talin that he too could get any man he wanted. Power-play. Just like their meeting during the Festival (before the episode with Panori), when it was about who would make the first move, who would give in first, who would show that he wanted/needed the other the most, who would show that weakness (as they saw it). So that’s one aspect of it: Hitari’s insecurities. Why did he cope with his insecurities and fear in this way? Well, there’s the lingering influence of the father. Hitari has been raised to steal, to cheat, to lie, and to manipulate. So we can see why he would do that.

I’m not making excuses. I’m not trying to absolve Hitari. But I want to stress that there are other possible explanations for what he’s done. There *can* be more to it than just the fact that Hitari doesn’t love Talin enough or is doomed in his evil ways. Their relationship is much more complex than that.

I still don’t think Talin completely *gets* Hitari, his position, his past, what being with Talin means to Hitari personally and socially, and it doesn’t have to do with just the fact that Hitari hasn’t opened up. Remember when Talin went to see Hitari in his apartment for the first time, his reactions to the poverty of the place; Talin’s reaction to Hitari’s sister and to Hitari helping her, he didn’t understand why Hitari thought the fact that he didn’t have a gift for him was reason enough not to come to the festival.

So the relationship between Talin and Hitari is more complex than 'Talin’s in love, but Hitari, we’re not so sure, he did bad things, hurt Talin, and now needs to prove himself'. That’s how the other characters view it. Desin, Selorin, Orinakin, all of them, except Kudorin and maybe Anosanim. They’re not ready to really try to understand Hitari, and where he’s coming from, and how that could possibly have affected his behavior. This wouldn’t take away what Hitari did, but it would certainly change the way they think about it and about him too. So yeah, they’re not ready for marriage also because the siblings are not ready to accept Hitari. It's not surprising that Hitari is insecure about being worthy of Talin, when most everybody else is thinking in the same terms, about being good enough, about loving Talin enough... 

And even if Hitari did indeed do all these things because he was a bastard, judging him as he is *now* based on the past would be unfair.  He’s making things better. He’s acting better. He has opened up to Talin. There’s been definite improvement, undeniable change.  Besides, with Kudorin aboard, I say team Hitari/Talin for the win! 

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Well, this poll's probably over.

-Matthew

[LilacMajesty]

You're gonna make me cry again.

[anaskee]

I'll cry with you, Liz.  *sniff* 

[LilacMajesty]

:::passes Ana the tissues:::

[SilverMoon28]

He's a manipulative bastard who deserves to rot in jail for what he did to Talin!!!!!!!!!!!!!  HOW COULD YOU STEAL FROM DESIGNERS AND *SELL* THOSE DESIGNS TO THE ROYAL HOUSE OF ART?!?!?!  HOW COULD YOU BETRAY TALIN?  HOW COULD YOU COMMIT TREASON AGAINST ORINA ANORIS?!?!?!??!?!?!

HOW COULD -

I'm angry!  Ask Liz how I reacted!!

I cried for Talin.  *sob*