Priests and Sex

[Rhia]

Okay, my gutter mind gets me in trouble. Especially when I'm on the phone with JaeFire, and I bring up a question. Peer pressure is an ugly, ugly thing, kids.

So, about the rules for priests. No touching below the waist, but can they touch themselves below the waist with someone else in the room? What about when someone else is touching them above the waist while they masturbate?

...I just asked for particulars on the sex lives (or lack thereof) of priests. I feel dirty. I think I'll just slink back to the gutter, now.

[JaeFire]

Okay, my gutter mind gets me in trouble. Especially when I'm on the phone with JaeFire, and I bring up a question. Peer pressure is an ugly, ugly thing, kids.

::blinks innocently::   

[SilverMoon28]

Okay, my gutter mind gets me in trouble. Especially when I'm on the phone with JaeFire, and I bring up a question. Peer pressure is an ugly, ugly thing, kids.

So, about the rules for priests. No touching below the waist, but can they touch themselves below the waist with someone else in the room? What about when someone else is touching them above the waist while they masturbate?

...I just asked for particulars on the sex lives (or lack thereof) of priests. I feel dirty. I think I'll just slink back to the gutter, now.

Bad Jae!

I recall a chapter in ITL when we saw what Remin's room looks like.  If I remember correctly, there were toys.  So, as far as I'm aware, Remin does get to sue his toys on himself, unless those were from a previous time in his life...

However, I don't think that Remin (I'm using Remin because I don't know of any other Anorian priest who's a... needy... as Remin is) would allow anyone to watch him while he masturbates.  I doubt he'd be able to take it.  He'd be likely to attack them .

You've just had me thinking about Remin having sex... on a Sunday... 20 minutes after I woke up... headrush... lol 

Vani

[Rhia]

I recall a chapter in ITL when we saw what Remin's room looks like.  If I remember correctly, there were toys.  So, as far as I'm aware, Remin does get to sue his toys on himself, unless those were from a previous time in his life...

However, I don't think that Remin (I'm using Remin because I don't know of any other Anorian priest who's a... needy... as Remin is) would allow anyone to watch him while he masturbates.  I doubt he'd be able to take it.  He'd be likely to attack them .

Oh, yeah, there's no question that Remin entertains himself, at times. He mentions it often enough, and there's at least one fairly explicit scene where his toys are put to good use. It's more of a question of whether or not someone else is allowed to be a semi-active participant, or whether that would be breaking the rules.

Haha, Remin's ability to cope with interactive masturbation... well, you're probably right.

You've just had me thinking about Remin having sex... on a Sunday... 20 minutes after I woke up... headrush... lol 

Come over to the dark side! We have cookies!

[SilverMoon28]

Come over to the dark side! We have cookies!

Honey, I live on the Dark Side.    I've been labeled the Queen of Gutterland by a lot of people.  Kind of funny, really.

That kind of makes me wonder... how do Anorians feel about... virginity?

Vani

[Rhia]

That kind of makes me wonder... how do Anorians feel about... virginity?

Hrm. I would think that as a society that's pretty much universally accepting of sexuality, the absence of sexual activity is just as acceptable. The priests are chaste from when they enter the priesthood until they marry, so abstention from sex is hardly looked down on. And Desin does make that comment about Bade moaning like a very enthusiastic virgin, and seems to consider it a good thing.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Cookies!  I like cookies.

As I understand it, you (Rhia) aren't allowed to go anywhere that might have spoilers, so Rini's MySpace blog would be off-limits.  So I'll post an entry here, in a safe zone.

Rini told us:

You can't confuse Remin with regular priests. There are rules and guidelines that the priests have to follow. They have a stricter code than the rest of us, so they can't have sex outside of marriage.

They can date, and hug, and kiss. They can be alone with their partners, and they can make out. They can't do anything that's penetrative or orgasmic or involving genitals with someone else, because that's supposed to be reserved for a spouse, but they're not forced to hide themselves away, either.

So, theoretically, Remin could be out there, dating, making out, and having a great time.

But Remin doesn't trust himself. He can't control himself, and guys can't control themselves around him, either. He has some metaphor to explain it, but it basically comes down to: once Remin's aroused, there's no stopping him. If he starts making out with some guy, they'll be fucking like crazy in about five seconds. And then he'll have broken his vows, and he'll feel like he's failed, and he'll never forgive himself, and his life will be ruined.

If he were less sexual and less passionate and less easily aroused, it wouldn't be a problem. He'd date around, like anyone else. But he's kind of sex-crazy. And guys have a lot of trouble staying away from him. One of the only things keeping guys from outright stripping naked and throwing themselves across his body is that he's the royal high priest, who has to be shown respect. If he'd been born fifth, or something, it would be even worse.

To answer your question, Remin can date and make out before marriage. He just doesn't trust himself enough to do that. So, while the other priests go out on dates, Remin prays a lot. And masturbates.

Masturbating with someone else in the room (before marriage) would be off-limits, if I understand it correctly.

So, cookies?

-Matthew

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

As for how Anorians feel about virginity, I'd go with Rhia's answer.  Anorians accept all flavors of sexuality.

-Matthew

[SilverMoon28]

So so so so so... he *could* have a boyfriend now?!  What in the name of Howie is he waiting for?

Ok, ok, he has to find the right person...

*sigh and waits for the Golden Book*

*Hands Matthew chocolate chip cookies*

Vani

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

he *could* have a boyfriend now?!  What in the name of Howie is he waiting for?

Rini says: But Remin doesn't trust himself. He can't control himself, and guys can't control themselves around him, either. He has some metaphor to explain it, but it basically comes down to: once Remin's aroused, there's no stopping him. If he starts making out with some guy, they'll be fucking like crazy in about five seconds. And then he'll have broken his vows, and he'll feel like he's failed, and he'll never forgive himself, and his life will be ruined.

-Matthew

[SilverMoon28]

"waves to Rini*

ok, I get that... but if Kudorin can break up and orgy, can't he help Remin with this... um... problem?  Granted, Remin would want to do it on his own, and I totally get that.

I just wanna see him happy instead of conflicted when he sees his brothers with other men

[Falconer]

"waves to Rini*

ok, I get that... but if Kudorin can break up and orgy, can't he help Remin with this... um... problem?  Granted, Remin would want to do it on his own, and I totally get that.

I just wanna see him happy instead of conflicted when he sees his brothers with other men

Kudorin does help Remin. He tells him not to go places where someone would be trying to seduce him, he once made someone who was going to Remin go somewhere else instead, and stuff like that... I think it's something Remin needs to go through on his own, which is why Kudorin does not interfere more than some warnings...

[SilverMoon28]

Kudorin does help Remin. He tells him not to go places where someone would be trying to seduce him, he once made someone who was going to Remin go somewhere else instead, and stuff like that... I think it's something Remin needs to go through on his own, which is why Kudorin does not interfere more than some warnings...

Tis true, he does.  And I do remember how he put Remin to sleep when the first orgy was taking place so that he wouldn't be roaming the palace feeling needy.

I shall just be patient and wait for his turn to come

Vani

[Rhia]

Cookies!  I like cookies.

Cookies for all! The people must have their cookies! Viva la Revolution! Er, or something.

As I understand it, you (Rhia) aren't allowed to go anywhere that might have spoilers, so Rini's MySpace blog would be off-limits.  So I'll post an entry here, in a safe zone.

Yes. Pain of Death. Sorry about that.

To answer your question, Remin can date and make out before marriage. He just doesn't trust himself enough to do that. So, while the other priests go out on dates, Remin prays a lot. And masturbates.

So I'm guessing we can look forward to a book with a whole heaping mountain of UST for Remin and some lucky guy. I'm cool with that.

Of course, I could probably read your dramatic re-write of the phone book and be happy, so yeah.

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

Of course, I could probably read your dramatic re-write of the phone book and be happy, so yeah.

Mmm...

You and I are going to get along very well.

Very well, indeed.

-Matthew

[mc_cart_ny]

They can date, and hug, and kiss. They can be alone with their partners, and they can make out. They can't do anything that's penetrative or orgasmic or involving genitals with someone else, because that's supposed to be reserved for a spouse, but they're not forced to hide themselves away, either.

So, if anything "penetrative or orgasmic or involving genirals with someone else" is supposed to be only for spouses...why is all of the sex that goes on in Orina Anoris ok?  If it's not even frowned upon for Anosanim to have sex with belas, Talin and Hitari to have sex, and for Desin to have sex with random people in stables then why can't priests?

I guess there's a good chance that Orina Anoris was at one time similar to our own world where not even a hundred years ago it was wrong to have sex outside of marriage and girls were supposed to be virgins but it was ok for boys to play the field.  I know people who think you should only have sex with your spouse and I know people that are ok with having sex with the guy they just met at a club.  But it seems that Orina Anoris has far surpassed our own.....ideas on sexual freedom.  Belams and prostitution is legal and ok, the pharaoh has both a husband and a wife, monogomy is not a general given when it comes to relationships.  If they've been able to go this far, then why are priests still being held back from sex?  Is not sex often times (although obviously not always) an expression of love or at least great affection between two people?  I understand that priests have an image to uphold and have to be dedicated to helping the people, society, and the gods but why can't they have sex too?

~McCartny~

[Matthew Haldeman-Time]

I should wait for someone else to come in and answer this, but, hey, I'm here.  My two cents:

Orina Anoris is a theocracy.  Being a priest isn't just another job, like being a waiter.  The priests basically run the country, and guide the citizens' lives.  They connect the people to the gods, and I probably can't overemphasize the importance of the gods in Orina Anoris.  So priests have an enormous amount of influence over Anorians on a fundamental level.

In 122, Kudorin didn't appreciate the suggestion that he'd coerce someone into having sex with him under the guise of growing closer to the gods.  It would be very easy for the priests to abuse their authority.  And even if the priests weren't doing it deliberately or consciously, it would be easy for people to think that by "getting closer to" the priests, they'd get closer to the gods.

This way, everything's kept aboveboard.

-Matthew

[Diamond]

Usually rules aren't made until someone screws something up. So I think there must have been some abuse of authority and sexual misconduct long ago to have to institute this as policy for all priests.

Like when we learned that diplomats aren't supposed to have sex when they travel because of a female Orinakin about 400 years ago having sex with contests of some tournament.

Someone, or several someones did something wrong in the past to bring this about.

Plus, the reason the Anorian gods brought a human deity into being was to establish a strong connection and a clear line of communication with their people. If unethical priests around the country are muddying people's faith by abusing their trust to get sex, the gods and the pharaoh would never allow it to continue.

At least, that's my take on it.

-Diamond

[SilverMoon28]

I would assume that in order to grow closer to the gods (assuming that some Anorians aren't able to do it on their own), they would use the priests for their counsel, the way we've seen until now.  Having sex with a priest just to grow closer to the gods, I think would only anger the gods in question (as we noticed with Anosukinom's reaction to Xio Voe's implication).  It would also make no sense because it's so easy for anyone to invoke the gods with a simple Anorian prayer.  And if foreigners refuse to do  it because of their own religion, Anorian servents do it for them.

And one should applaud the priests for choosing their religion above carnal pleasures, especially in such a free society as Orina Anoris.

Vani

[Rhia]

Orina Anoris is a theocracy.  Being a priest isn't just another job, like being a waiter.  The priests basically run the country, and guide the citizens' lives.  They connect the people to the gods, and I probably can't overemphasize the importance of the gods in Orina Anoris.  So priests have an enormous amount of influence over Anorians on a fundamental level.

Oh, awesome. I was actually working my way up to asking this, because Jae and I have been debating whether or not Remin will be allowed extramarital sex (specifically belas), if his future partner is amenable. Since I figure a lot of that depends on why Anorian priests are chaste in the first place...

Awesome.

Usually rules aren't made until someone screws something up. So I think there must have been some abuse of authority and sexual misconduct long ago to have to institute this as policy for all priests.

A fact well known by anyone who's had to deal with a hundred-page employee conduct manual. Sure, it seems like common sense, but someone probably pulled that stuff if they felt the need to include it.

[mc_cart_ny]

Ohh thanks for answering my questions everyone!

~McCartny~

[LDoza]

Quote
Usually rules aren't made until someone screws something up. So I think there must have been some abuse of authority and sexual misconduct long ago to have to institute this as policy for all priests.

A fact well known by anyone who's had to deal with a hundred-page employee conduct manual. Sure, it seems like common sense, but someone probably pulled that stuff if they felt the need to include it.

I know in the Catholic Church it is part Tradition... because St. Paul was completely ASEXUAL!  .. and we don't know about Jesus or the disiciples.  but.. in the modern world it is more because they don't want priests 'distracted' by family life..
also they couldn't in any way afford to support families of priests.... specially since they don't allow birth control!

[Magical_Jen]

Rini told us:

You can't confuse Remin with regular priests. There are rules and guidelines that the priests have to follow. They have a stricter code than the rest of us, so they can't have sex outside of marriage.

They can date, and hug, and kiss. They can be alone with their partners, and they can make out. They can't do anything that's penetrative or orgasmic or involving genitals with someone else, because that's supposed to be reserved for a spouse, but they're not forced to hide themselves away, either.

Masturbating with someone else in the room (before marriage) would be off-limits, if I understand it correctly.

-Matthew

Thanks goes to Rhia for directing my question to the right place.

Okay originally i posted a question in the "Remin" about whether or not Remin would be able to visit the Belams after he is married because of his position.  Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but after looking through both threads it would seem like Remin wouldn't be bale to visit  the belams after this marriage.
 Because the Priest are not denied the right to have sex after they are married, their period of abstinence's seem to be less about a sign of devotion to the gods and more about creating this idealized image of what marriage should be.  Or are we suppose to look at their ability to resist sexual temptation while they remain single as their willingness to put their spiritual devotion above  there human desire.

 How could Remin have sex with a Bela after he is married when there is this emphasis on refraining from your sexual desires and sharing your body with his spouse?  oh, since  the priest are such an important part of Anorian society and so many people look to them for guidance wouldn't the citizens of Orina Anoris  look at a priest marriage and think that is what they should try to imitate? Orinakin mentioned that it is up to the individual couples to decide how exclusive they are going to be with their spouse but I have to wonder how many couples introduce other people into their relationship if they see their priest, the people they admire and look up to, being so loyal to their respective husbands and wives.

[SilverMoon28]

How could Remin have sex with a Bela after he is married when there is this emphasis on refraining from your sexual desires and sharing your body with his spouse?  oh, since  the priest are such an important part of Anorian society and so many people look to them for guidance wouldn't the citizens of Orina Anoris  look at a priest marriage and think that is what they should try to imitate? Orinakin mentioned that it is up to the individual couples to decide how exclusive they are going to be with their spouse but I have to wonder how many couples introduce other people into their relationship if they see their priest, the people they admire and look up to, being so loyal to their respective husbands and wives.

What you need to remember is that having sex with a bela, even after one is married, isn't considered cheating in Anorian society.

If there isn't a specific law abstaining Remin from using the belams after he's married, I think he'll go for it often, but that depends on the relationship he has with his husband.

Ohhhh I can't wait for the gold book!! 

Vani

[Magical_Jen]

What you need to remember is that having sex with a Bela, even after one is married, isn't considered cheating in Anorian society.

If there isn't a specific law abstaining Remin from using the belams after he's married, I think he'll go for it often, but that depends on the relationship he has with his husband.

Ohhhh I can't wait for the gold book!! 

Vani

I wasn't necessary suggesting that if Remin was sleeping with a Bela, his husband would think he is cheating on him,  just that Remin might only be able to share his body with one other person. I know that there hasn't been any evidences that suggest that he can't sleep with Belas, but it could be a possibility. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[SilverMoon28]

Indeed we shall!

Is it Gold yet? 

Vani

[Rhia]

Because the Priest are not denied the right to have sex after they are married, their period of abstinence's seem to be less about a sign of devotion to the gods and more about creating this idealized image of what marriage should be.  Or are we suppose to look at their ability to resist sexual temptation while they remain single as their willingness to put their spiritual devotion above  there human desire.

If you'll look above, you'll see that this question has already been addressed. The chastity vow that the priesthood takes has less to do with idealizing marriage or sexual temptation than it does with preventing the priesthood from abusing their power, either intentionally ("if you have sex with me, you'll be closer to the gods") or unintentionally ("if I have sex with this priest, maybe I'll be closer to the gods!").

For that matter, saying that they're meant to represent an idealized marriage implies that Anorian society defines an ideal marriage as a monogamous one. This could be me misremembering, but I don't recall anything about Anorians objecting to the marriage involving other partners, as long as it's all aboveboard and both members of the couple are happy with the arrangement. Orinakin and Bade involve the belas, Selorin says at one point that he is against Orinakin keeping Bade to himself, and Orinakin offers Bade to Remin for some quality make-out time. None of this implies that an "ideal" marriage has to be an exclusive one.

How could Remin have sex with a Bela after he is married when there is this emphasis on refraining from your sexual desires and sharing your body with his spouse?  oh, since  the priest are such an important part of Anorian society and so many people look to them for guidance wouldn't the citizens of Orina Anoris  look at a priest marriage and think that is what they should try to imitate? Orinakin mentioned that it is up to the individual couples to decide how exclusive they are going to be with their spouse but I have to wonder how many couples introduce other people into their relationship if they see their priest, the people they admire and look up to, being so loyal to their respective husbands and wives.

All of this hinges on the idea that priestly chastity is based on the repression of desire or the ideal marriage being a monogamous one. As for people patterning their marriages on those formed by priests... I don't think that would work, on several levels. For one thing, there's a heavy emphasis on each couple building a relationship based on what works for them, personally. The priests bless the union only after they're sure that both partners are on the same page, and that the marriage will be a healthy one. A marriage patterned elusively on someone else's marriage, rather than based on personal tastes and needs, would not be a healthy one.

For that matter, if patterning your marriage on someone you look up to and admire was acceptable, one could easily argue that polygamy would be prevalent, since the pharaoh -- a god -- has more than one spouse. It doesn't seem to work that way.

As for whether Remin would be allowed to sleep with the belas, there's no way to know yet, but as things stand I'm going to guess that it would be a choice made by him and his husband.

[mc_cart_ny]

Oh I like that, Rhia!  I think everything you said makes a lot of sense. 

As for whether Remin would be allowed to sleep with the belas, there's no way to know yet, but as things stand I'm going to guess that it would be a choice made by him and his husband.

So, I'm going to go with if the high priest is indeed allowed to sleep with the belas after he's married -- then yes, Remin will be having lots of sex with his husband and the belas 

~McCartny~

[Rhia]

Oh I like that, Rhia!  I think everything you said makes a lot of sense. 

Thanks!

As for whether Remin would be allowed to sleep with the belas, there's no way to know yet, but as things stand I'm going to guess that it would be a choice made by him and his husband.

So, I'm going to go with if the high priest is indeed allowed to sleep with the belas after he's married -- then yes, Remin will be having lots of sex with his husband and the belas 

~McCartny~

I realized that I probably should have explained my reasoning behind that... I'm not sure that your everyday priest would be able to have sex outside of the marriage (simply because the whole "potential abuse of power" thing would still be valid after marriage) but I think that it's possible that the belas, who serve the Siblings in a professional capacity, are an exception to that rule. It wouldn't be asking them to do something they might not normally do, were priestly authority not involved -- it would be asking them to do something that they would do anyway. Mind you, this part is all speculation.

Whether or not he can sleep with the belas, though, is still up in the air. What if his husband is the monogamous type? 

[mc_cart_ny]

Yeah, I think that normal priests most likely would not be able to have sex outside of marriage, as well.  It would get tangled up ini the exact same reasons as to why they cannot have sex before marriage.  However, yes, I do think that the high priest is something of an exception perhaps since they have the belas...

Well, I hope they will be allowed to have sex with the belas!

And somehow I see Remin marrying someone who is sexually compatiable with him, meaning that he will be just as interested in sex and belas as Remin is

~McCartny~

[SilverMoon28]

And somehow I see Remin marrying someone who is sexually compatiable with him, meaning that he will be just as interested in sex and belas as Remin is

~McCartny~

Oohhh yes... that's going to be a lot of fun to read about!  Imagine how they're both going to be before the wedding!  Worse than Xio Voe and Kudorin, who can at least, well... have some form of sex together.  I don't even know if Remin would be able to do that with his future husband.

Or would he?

Matthew?  Help? 

Vani

[JaeFire]

The chastity vow that the priesthood takes has less to do with idealizing marriage or sexual temptation than it does with preventing the priesthood from abusing their power, either intentionally ("if you have sex with me, you'll be closer to the gods") or unintentionally ("if I have sex with this priest, maybe I'll be closer to the gods!").

For that matter, saying that they're meant to represent an idealized marriage implies that Anorian society defines an ideal marriage as a monogamous one. This could be me misremembering, but I don't recall anything about Anorians objecting to the marriage involving other partners, as long as it's all aboveboard and both members of the couple are happy with the arrangement. Orinakin and Bade involve the belas, Selorin says at one point that he is against Orinakin keeping Bade to himself, and Orinakin offers Bade to Remin for some quality make-out time. None of this implies that an "ideal" marriage has to be an exclusive one.

All of this hinges on the idea that priestly chastity is based on the repression of desire or the ideal marriage being a monogamous one. As for people patterning their marriages on those formed by priests... I don't think that would work, on several levels. For one thing, there's a heavy emphasis on each couple building a relationship based on what works for them, personally. The priests bless the union only after they're sure that both partners are on the same page, and that the marriage will be a healthy one. A marriage patterned elusively on someone else's marriage, rather than based on personal tastes and needs, would not be a healthy one.

For that matter, if patterning your marriage on someone you look up to and admire was acceptable, one could easily argue that polygamy would be prevalent, since the pharaoh -- a god -- has more than one spouse. It doesn't seem to work that way.

As for whether Remin would be allowed to sleep with the belas, there's no way to know yet, but as things stand I'm going to guess that it would be a choice made by him and his husband.

Beautiful.  Well-said!                        I give you a hug!   

- Jae

[Rebel]

Ok, just playing devils advocate here. But I seem to remember in a fairly recent chapter, Kudorin saying something about how Remin shouldnt give up all his old ways, and Remin replied that he might as well, even married no one man could keep up with him. Sorry, dont have exact quote  ; but this kind of indicated to me that he would be expected to be with only his husband, not belas. Am I reading it wrong?

[CourtneyLee]

I read it that way, too. It does look like Remin won't be able to visit with belas even after he's married. Which is a shame, but it makes sense when you look at the reasons why priests are expected to abstain. A married priest is still a priest, after all, and the potential for power abuse, either knowingly or unknowingly on the part of the priest in question, is still there.

[mc_cart_ny]

So, all I read was the last two comments by CourtneyLee and Rebel and I thought, I don't think Remin would be allowed to have sex with the belas either.  And then scrolled up the page a little to see that almost a year ago I was thinking the exact opposite. lol  It's funny to see how your opinions can change!  Perhaps it was just wishful thinking...it would be nice to see Remin with a bela or two...or five....

~McCartny~